Duration paint mystery - Paint Talk

Naples painter · 12-06-2009, 11:01 AM

This is a mystery. House with five year old FlexBon paint was just repainted with Duration satin. Prep work included sanding, washing with dilute solution Krud Kutter and rinse. First coat was SW conditioner. Then the Duration and the thickness was checked with a gauge.

No surface was painted in the sun or early in the morning. No painting was done during threat of rain or on very windy days. Went to extreme measure because client was very fussy and this was the first time I used Duration exterior paint. Always used Flex Bon before.

Two weeks after the paint job, the weather became very humid and warm in Southwest Florida. Many tiny almost micro bubbles appeared in various places and large areas bubbled as well. When the weather became cool and dry all the micro bubbles disappeared overnight and the largest bubbles became crazed paint.

Has anyone ever experienced such an event? I could understand it if the surfaces were damp when the walls were painted. Also if the paint was put on extremely heavy. But the depth was checked with a gauge and met specs. Duration says no conditioner is needed but the SW store and SW rep suggested using the Flex Bon one. I am wondering about a compatibility issue. Or is Duration paint not what it should be?

jack pauhl · 12-06-2009, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naples painter

This is a mystery. House with five year old FlexBon paint was just repainted with Duration satin. Prep work included sanding, washing with dilute solution Krud Kutter and rinse. First coat was SW conditioner. Then the Duration and the thickness was checked with a gauge.

No surface was painted in the sun or early in the morning. No painting was done during threat of rain or on very windy days. Went to extreme measure because client was very fussy and this was the first time I used Duration exterior paint. Always used Flex Bon before.

Two weeks after the paint job, the weather became very humid and warm in Southwest Florida. Many tiny almost micro bubbles appeared in various places and large areas bubbled as well. When the weather became cool and dry all the micro bubbles disappeared overnight and the largest bubbles became crazed paint.

Has anyone ever experienced such an event? I could understand it if the surfaces were damp when the walls were painted. Also if the paint was put on extremely heavy. But the depth was checked with a gauge and met specs. Duration says no conditioner is needed but the SW store and SW rep suggested using the Flex Bon one. I am wondering about a compatibility issue. Or is Duration paint not what it should be?

Ask the Pro's. Ask Sherwin Williams. Hold them to it. Get the rep out there, thats why he's there. To help you make the right choice.

bigjeffie61520 · 12-06-2009, 11:57 AM

seems like we had another post w/ an exterior issue like this one recently...

plainpainter · 12-06-2009, 12:14 PM

The problems with Durations and paints in general - is thus, the more layers of paint you put on top of each other, the more unstable the whole finish becomes. As well - harder and/or stronger type guerrilla gripping paints like Durations you want to go right straight to the base material your painting to. If you apply Durations over many layers of older paint - and even if you scrape, powerwash, and sand like mad - the paint that remains will be recipient of a tug of war between the substrate and that 'cap' of Durations that is flexing the friggin $hit out of it.

The last house I painted - that was over a century old with 17 layers of old alligatoring thick paint, I talked the homeowners into oil based solid stain on the clapboards and stuck with latex only for the trim after a thorough XIM treatment as the first coat on the trim. Oil solid stain will not stress older layers of paint - and the amount of prep I did, I knew would give long enough life without major peeling before the 5-7 year mark. When folks want Durations on a previously painted house, with no idea what was used initially upon construction gives me the chills.

However, if you get a new painting project with Factory primed siding - I think Durations is perhaps the best product to use. With all other paints I will reprime factory primed siding after a pressure washing - paints Like Durations, you can skip that step. And then you don't have any worries in the future - but over time, I'd still use a 'weaker' paint after 4-5 recoats.

johnpaint · 12-06-2009, 12:43 PM

I wonder if the solvents they use in this paint loosen the existing paint. I have hat this happen with some of the newer waterborne paints.

plainpainter · 12-06-2009, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnpaint

I wonder if the solvents they use in this paint loosen the existing paint. I have hat this happen with some of the newer waterborne paints.

John - they use more butyl in paints these days because the majority of painters these days do minimal prep to ensure adhesion. If paints were still being formulated like they were 20 years ago, with todays breed of 'painters', nothing would stick anymore. Butyl is an important ingredient that kind of 'melts' the old finish and fuses the new paint into the old finish.

y.painting · 12-06-2009, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naples painter

This is a mystery. House with five year old FlexBon paint was just repainted with Duration satin. Prep work included sanding, washing with dilute solution Krud Kutter and rinse. First coat was SW conditioner. Then the Duration and the thickness was checked with a gauge.

No surface was painted in the sun or early in the morning. No painting was done during threat of rain or on very windy days. Went to extreme measure because client was very fussy and this was the first time I used Duration exterior paint. Always used Flex Bon before.

Two weeks after the paint job, the weather became very humid and warm in Southwest Florida. Many tiny almost micro bubbles appeared in various places and large areas bubbled as well. When the weather became cool and dry all the micro bubbles disappeared overnight and the largest bubbles became crazed paint.

Has anyone ever experienced such an event? I could understand it if the surfaces were damp when the walls were painted. Also if the paint was put on extremely heavy. But the depth was checked with a gauge and met specs. Duration says no conditioner is needed but the SW store and SW rep suggested using the Flex Bon one. I am wondering about a compatibility issue. Or is Duration paint not what it should be?

The following threads discuss bubble + humidity issues:

High humidity

Anyone Ever Seen?

Bubbles After Complete Dry Time

Bubbles

via the search function

plainpainter · 12-06-2009, 01:03 PM

We should make a thread with the above links a 'sticky' for information purposes.

johnpaint · 12-06-2009, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plainpainter

John - they use more butyl in paints these days because the majority of painters these days do minimal prep to ensure adhesion. If paints were still being formulated like they were 20 years ago, with todays breed of 'painters', nothing would stick anymore. Butyl is an important ingredient that kind of 'melts' the old finish and fuses the new paint into the old finish.

yeah; I think you are right. Last summer I painted a front door almost a black color and few days later it had bubbles all over it.I though it was my paint that had a problem, but as I popped one of the bubbles I could see it went all the way down to bare door.I think th combination of extra heat from the sun, and what you are talking about is what did it. Also have you ever noticed that if you have dried paint on your brush at the end of the day, if you sink the brush into your paint bucket of paint for a while before you wash it, it will clean up easier?

AmericanPatch&Paint · 12-06-2009, 01:21 PM

I've used SW Duration Exterior for every exterior job I've done in the past 12yrs. and I never use any kind of conditioner for prep (at most an oil based primer for older wood) I find that the Duration bonds best to itself, If you apply your first coat a little lighter (don't shoot for the 7mil @ application)
and allow to dry thoroughly then your finish coat will dry as it should. If your getting the bubbles (I've had them a couple times) then there is too much being applied in too short of time, just like if your inside and apply 2 coats of paint w/ a 1/2" nap on an entire house you'll see bubbles, or if you've ever had vinyl lettering put on a vehicle and it has bubbles for a while after, a good 95% of them should go away after all the humidity is gone. If the larger bubbles shrink down to smaller ones and don't go away, simply scrape the raised area allow to dry or use blow dryer or low temp heat gun, SW will give you sufficient amount of paint to redo the area or entire side of the structure if the damage is excessive or has to be redone to look uniform. Take your paint rep to the site to check it out for themselves. I find that when applying over porous surfaces it's always better to spray and back brush, this penetrates the base coat deep into the surface and then fills it level w/ the brush, which then makes your topcoat look perfect. This may sound odd but the Flat finish seems to hold up and bond way better than the Satin or Gloss, I also think that it provides a better surface for the topcoat to bond to. If I'm going to do a satin finish and it's not on Vinyl or Aluminum I always use Flat for my base coat and Satin for the topcoat.

johnpaint · 12-06-2009, 01:33 PM

Yeah; I think your procedure will be good for most any paint that is out there now. this is what I do also.The main point is not to over build the first coat with any paint. I always like to be able to see a few light holidays on the first coat anyway, so I know where I have been.I have a friend that does one coaters all the time and when I have him help me with a job it's hard to get him use to the way I do it.

AmericanPatch&Paint · 12-06-2009, 01:40 PM

It takes some longer to learn!

Naples painter · 12-06-2009, 01:44 PM

Thank all of you for your prompt responses. Maybe I didn't state it, but this is the first repaint job since the house was built. The Duration label does not call fro a primer but both my SW rep and SW store employees recommended Flex Bon conditioner. Said it would help the paint bond better. The original paint was a Flex Bon semi-gloss and it held up beautifully to the stucco.

AmericanPatch&Paint · 12-06-2009, 02:12 PM

If the Flex was still in good shape you should have been able to spray two coats and been just fine, if it's actual stucco and not a EIFS it will hold moisture from powerwashing WAY longer, Don't be afraid to use Duration again, it's by far the best looking/lasting exterior coating IMO

johnpaint · 12-06-2009, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmericanPatch&Paint

If the Flex was still in good shape you should have been able to spray two coats and been just fine, if it's actual stucco and not a EIFS it will hold moisture from powerwashing WAY longer, Don't be afraid to use Duration again, it's by far the best looking/lasting exterior coating IMO

Thats because thats all you use APP, there are plenty others that are just as good.You have just gotten use to one paint and worked out the bug's, of that one paint.

capitalcity painting · 12-06-2009, 06:34 PM

Seems that everyone that complains of bubbles with Duration uses a cleaner (krud kutter, bleach, etc) and washes the house before painting. I personally dont like to use any chemical on something Im getting ready to paint. Also if I pressure wash its going to be several days prior to painting to let it dry, especially if its raw wood or a masonry surface like in this post. Ive used Duration almost exclusively for the last 6 years or so and have never had any problems.

Metro M & L · 12-06-2009, 06:55 PM

I've definitely heard people complain about issues using duration on repaints. I've never had the nerve to try it since.

plainpainter · 12-06-2009, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by capitalcity painting

Seems that everyone that complains of bubbles with Duration uses a cleaner (krud kutter, bleach, etc) and washes the house before painting. I personally dont like to use any chemical on something Im getting ready to paint. Also if I pressure wash its going to be several days prior to painting to let it dry, especially if its raw wood or a masonry surface like in this post. Ive used Duration almost exclusively for the last 6 years or so and have never had any problems.

I've had those bubble happen with multiple brands of paint - washing a home before painting is an important step in the prep stage, you have to really rinse well. But you are implying these bubbles are moisture related - I've popped these bubbles a dozen times with a moisture meter, and moisture was never a factor. It's a failure of first coat that has let go of the substrate - latex paint is elastic, unlike the old traditional oil paints that turned into enamel hard coating with no flex. Everytime you apply a new coat of paint - it exerts a tension on the old layers of paint beneath it, the more coats of paint you apply the higher the probability you will exceed the threshold of adhesion of the first coat to the substrate. A paint like Durations is a thicker technology of paint, it's like putting on 3 coats at once, so you are more rapidly approaching that threshold level when all the layers of paint finally create a tension force greater than the adhesion between the basecoat and substrate. And POP goes the proverbial weasel.

When the sun hits one side of a home and heats it up - that latex paint wants to expand in a big way, and it's tenaciously holding onto the layer beneath it - but if there is any 'weak' link in the chain, it will let go and you get a bubble.

I've had homes where they had 2-3 layers of an older technology oil based coating - having been built in the 50's, and at some point a transition to latex was made - and now there is 2-3 coats of latex over the oil. I have seen where this transition was made from oil to latex, that the 'interface' was dusty and chalky, just what you would expect from a weathered oil-based coating. The first coat of latex {an older 70's generation of latex} held somewhat fine, then the succeeding coat of latex began to exert more tension causing some bubbles. By the third coat - that tenacious bond between the first coat of latex and last coat of oil - has been exceeded and now there are 'balloons' everywhere the paint has let go. Nothing to do with moisture - and very common phenomena.

johnpaint · 12-06-2009, 08:32 PM

See there you go Plain you know what you are talking about.The paint (has) to be strong, and of good quality,or you will get this sometimes. It also helps to lay down a light first coat.

capitalcity painting · 12-07-2009, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plainpainter

I've had those bubble happen with multiple brands of paint - washing a home before painting is an important step in the prep stage, you have to really rinse well. But you are implying these bubbles are moisture related - I've popped these bubbles a dozen times with a moisture meter, and moisture was never a factor. It's a failure of first coat that has let go of the substrate - latex paint is elastic, unlike the old traditional oil paints that turned into enamel hard coating with no flex. Everytime you apply a new coat of paint - it exerts a tension on the old layers of paint beneath it, the more coats of paint you apply the higher the probability you will exceed the threshold of adhesion of the first coat to the substrate. A paint like Durations is a thicker technology of paint, it's like putting on 3 coats at once, so you are more rapidly approaching that threshold level when all the layers of paint finally create a tension force greater than the adhesion between the basecoat and substrate. And POP goes the proverbial weasel.

When the sun hits one side of a home and heats it up - that latex paint wants to expand in a big way, and it's tenaciously holding onto the layer beneath it - but if there is any 'weak' link in the chain, it will let go and you get a bubble.

I've had homes where they had 2-3 layers of an older technology oil based coating - having been built in the 50's, and at some point a transition to latex was made - and now there is 2-3 coats of latex over the oil. I have seen where this transition was made from oil to latex, that the 'interface' was dusty and chalky, just what you would expect from a weathered oil-based coating. The first coat of latex {an older 70's generation of latex} held somewhat fine, then the succeeding coat of latex began to exert more tension causing some bubbles. By the third coat - that tenacious bond between the first coat of latex and last coat of oil - has been exceeded and now there are 'balloons' everywhere the paint has let go. Nothing to do with moisture - and very common phenomena.

Im not saying dont wash the house. Im saying that a typical pressure wash should be good with no chemicals and to allow several days for drying. If your washing raw wood with krud kutter dont you think that it could absorb in the wood so much that rinsing may not get it off and then you paint it and trap it or possibly cause a chemical reaction with whatever is in the paint. Krud Kutter is a pretty harsh cleaner it cleans up my greased up grill with ease do we really need to wash a house with that has just cobwebs, dirt, and dust.

I'm not saying that your wrong but if it happens so common dont you think it could be something your doing when there are several contractors that have never had a problem with it. As I said I have been using it regularly for the past 6 years and we do most of our work outside. In KY we go from 20* to 95* with alot of rain sometimes and sometimes not, so we have a wide range of weather and we have never had any problem with Duration.