How do you handle rate/vs days on job? - Paint Talk

salestrainer · 02-08-2010, 03:58 PM

Just curious what thoughts are on this estimate question. Just set up job for master bath re-paint, After much research on this site, I have decided to price jobs at $45.00 per hour. Now this job I am calculating will be 12 hours (quite a bit of trim, ceiling, color changes etc), this may go into a 2 day job. I would like to work a 12 hour day of course to knock this out. My question is this, if I work 8 hrs one day, come back, work 4 hours another day, Haven't I really lost 2 days production here. I can't really start another job till the 3rd day, if that makes sense, how do I account for those hours, or do I? Starting to get enought jobs were scheduling them is an issue, that is a good problem to have though! At this point because speed is an issue with me, I am not scheduling jobs that tight, giving myself some room for unexpected problems, however in the future how should I handle these odd 1 1/2 day jobs?

Roadog · 02-08-2010, 04:09 PM

So how did you get $45? Did you calculate your overhead, your rate, etc. or was that number in some post?

salestrainer · 02-08-2010, 05:10 PM

I did take my overhead (business overhead minimal at this point my personal overhead is the majority), what I need to make to grow my biz, and at this point it is 45.00-50.00 per hour. That being said, it seems like that is a number that has been disussed on this forum as a minimum for a one man show to grow on. Thanks for checking out my post, welcome any help!

Wolfgang · 02-08-2010, 05:46 PM

Count them as 2 day jobs, schedule them as 2 day jobs. Right now with your experience level it's probably a good idea to leave yourself a little room for the unexpected.

I applaud you on your reasoning for your hourly rate, sounds like a mature way of handling it.

tedrin · 02-08-2010, 05:53 PM

Small jobs get a higher rate of pay,especially if there are multiple trips to do mudding/repairs...In your case $800 + expenses,including the money for gas...

vermontpainter · 02-08-2010, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfgang

Count them as 2 day jobs, schedule them as 2 day jobs. Right now with your experience level it's probably a good idea to leave yourself a little room for the unexpected.

I applaud you on your reasoning for your hourly rate, sounds like a mature way of handling it.

The closing rate just dropped a little.

aaron61 · 02-08-2010, 07:24 PM

1.5=2

Schmidt & Co. · 02-08-2010, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aaron61

1.5=2

wje · 02-08-2010, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aaron61

1.5=2

If you charge for 2 and are able to squeeze in another 1/2 day job it is a major bonus. I recently implemented a minimum charge and it at least makes any trip worth while. You sound very professional already so good luck to you.

MAK-Deco · 02-08-2010, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aaron61

1.5=2

I agree...

NEPS.US · 02-08-2010, 09:06 PM

Work on your production methods and make that 1.5 a 1 which will result in a increase in your hourly rate and allow you to schedule more work.

aaron61 · 02-08-2010, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wje

If you charge for 2 and are able to squeeze in another 1/2 day job it is a major bonus. I recently implemented a minimum charge and it at least makes any trip worth while. You sound very professional already so good luck to you.

Yes & Thank You

aaron61 · 02-08-2010, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEPS.US

Work on your production methods and make that 1.5 a 1 which will result in a increase in your hourly rate and allow you to schedule more work.

This will take time, so for now I would stick with 1.5=2. As you increase your production methods you will increase profits. This of course depends on where you are in efficiency at this point. Maybe you're already as tight with your efficiency as you feel comfortable or ever will be.IMHO

NEPS.US · 02-08-2010, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aaron61

This will take time so for now I would stick with 1.5=2. as you increase your production methods you will increase profits. This of course depends on where you are in efficiency at this point. Maybe you're already as tight with your efficiency as you feel comfortable.

Which leads the OP to the route of working for a reputable contractor. Production rates and learning how to maneuver a foyer are a must for anyone starting their own business.

WAGGZ · 02-08-2010, 10:34 PM

I agree with 1.5 = 2. But why can't you start another job until the 3rd day. If your next job has some prep then go do it the 2nd afternoon and be ready to rock n roll first thing day 3. I say this tounge in check not knowing your area. I say this thinking about my area, I live in a small community and the majority of my business in in a 10-15 mile radius of SW (I start almost everyday there). But for you the drive might off set the advantage of the having everything ready when you arrive.

salestrainer · 02-08-2010, 11:06 PM

Yes, I am still increasing my efficiency curve, my goal is to get to the point were I can do a job like this in 1 day. I have no ego guys, I don't mind to ask basic questions. I would say the majority of "pro" painters don't know what their production rates are. I would guess this forum consists of way less than 1% of the painting population. Most pro's and hacks alike think they know it all, these guys would never spend the time to ask questions on a forum like this. I do appreciate everyone's feedback, it is helping.

Wolfgang · 02-09-2010, 10:02 AM

Over the years one thing I've noticed about myself was that there were days I could "burn" through a job...and days I couldnt. No one is belittling you for your post...and I think you got some real good answers. Aaron is right on with his answer to you. Not only does he have the painting experience, he also has the scheduling/business experience.

Production rates will always vary from job to job, as they will with person to person. What you need to find is a "comfort level" where you can do the job professionally. Leaving yourself a half day cushion isnt a bad thing to do at this stage of your business. Believe it or not, once you get your company rolling, and the season is upon you, you'll be grateful for those half days.

plainpainter · 02-09-2010, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salestrainer

Just curious what thoughts are on this estimate question. Just set up job for master bath re-paint, After much research on this site, I have decided to price jobs at $45.00 per hour. Now this job I am calculating will be 12 hours (quite a bit of trim, ceiling, color changes etc), this may go into a 2 day job. I would like to work a 12 hour day of course to knock this out. My question is this, if I work 8 hrs one day, come back, work 4 hours another day, Haven't I really lost 2 days production here. I can't really start another job till the 3rd day, if that makes sense, how do I account for those hours, or do I? Starting to get enought jobs were scheduling them is an issue, that is a good problem to have though! At this point because speed is an issue with me, I am not scheduling jobs that tight, giving myself some room for unexpected problems, however in the future how should I handle these odd 1 1/2 day jobs?

This depends how you base your man-hour rate. Assuming you have some grey matter in your noggen, you have probably figured out that working as an owner/operator - you will never achieve working 2,000 hours per year like you would going to a desk job. This is a major concept hurdle loads of guys don't get. So what you can do - is imagine a pie graph representing your total gross sales assuming you do work for 2,000 hours and the acceptable man-hour rate you need. You will have to set aside some of that 'pie' for advertizing costs, operations overhead {i.e. getting truck repairs, office supplies, website hosting, etc} then there is your liability insurance, workers comp. Then there is your direct overhead like materials and sundries cost during the year. So let's say on the whole you have realized that charging $50/hr {include materials - typically 15% of gross sales} multiplied by 2,000 hours yields $100,000 in total sales.

Now remember your 'salary' of total sales as an owner operator is at best 40-50% of total gross sales - so this will be a 40-50k salary which actually includes your net profit margin, which really shouldn't be part of your salary.

Anyways - going back to your 1.5 day dilemma - you have just realized you will only be able to charge about 75% of theoretical billable hours. But your whole 'pie' was created upon the assumption of working 100% of all theoretical billable hours. Of course - as an owner/operator you will use that half day as time to bring a truck in for repairs or go meet another prospective customer to estimate more work. What you need to do is realize that 75% may overall be about the best 'duty' cycle you can achieve.

So take your theoretical man-hour rate of $50/hr based upon a perfect work schedule of 2,000 hours in a year. And then divide it by your 'duty' cycle like so..... 50/.75=66.67 that is now your true 'on-the-job' billable rate. So let's say you took the advice of others, and charged for 2 days at your $50 rate - that would yield $800 in sales. Now let's say you ignore the wasted half days and just charged your new 'on-the-job' rate of $66.67 multiplied by the anticipated amount of hours....66.67*12=800. It turned out the same in both cases - but won't necessarily happen like this all the time. And you won't have to decide to charge for a full day or not, you just charge your newly configured man-hour rate by the amount of time on the job.

Let's say you do a job that takes 2-1/2 days. If you charged for 3 days @ $50/hr that equals $1,000. Now if you decide to simply count hours and apply your new rate that is now 20*66.67= $1,333.40. Obviously larger jobs give you more consistent work schedules and thus you can charge closer to your $50/hr rate - and shorter jobs really make your schedule much 'choppier' and you need a higher man-hour rate to compensate. Only you can decide how much you want to 'punish' homeowners with a higher rate for small jobs - perhaps you will charge your large jobs a slightly higher amount - and then use those dollars to offset the costs of smaller jobs. These are all decisions you have to make. But ad hoc, charging 3 days for 2-1/3 of scheduled work I don't think is a good way to go about things.

Tonyg · 02-09-2010, 11:09 AM

2 days if you have a full schedule. 1.5 if you have holes in the schedule.

Supply and demand - if you are in demand then that half day is losing revenue.

salestrainer · 02-09-2010, 11:28 AM

Great info guys, thanks for the help. I am sitting on my butt today because a buddy of mine wanting painting done starting Monday, then backed out on me yesterday, I had already put him on schedule, if I had known, I could have started my next job right now instead of Thursday, Oh well, this is the only friend and family job I have had a problem with, Didn't ask for a deposit like I normally do, because of the buddy issue. That being said, with the 7 in. of snow we got last night, not a bad day to sit, lol!