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Old 06-14-2010, 10:42 PM   #1
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Default Latex extender

Crazy question but here goes...

The MSDS for Dyna Flo indicates that it's simply propylene glycol. Anyone out there ever use just straight automobile anti freeze?

What about any other everyday houshold ingredients that function as well as the pricy stuff with the fancy names we buy from the wholesalers?

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Old 06-14-2010, 11:09 PM   #2
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Crazy question but here goes...

The MSDS for Dyna Flo indicates that it's simply propylene glycol. Anyone out there ever use just straight automobile anti freeze?

What about any other everyday houshold ingredients that function as well as the pricy stuff with the fancy names we buy from the wholesalers?
Never tried it, but I'd trust the stuff manufactured specifically for paint rather than household chemicals.

I've also had extender freeze, so it can't just be antifreeze

Anyone else have any insight?

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Old 06-14-2010, 11:12 PM   #3
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I rely on xim's extender as it does not change the chemical properties of the paint....but i'd be curious to see what a chemist would say...paging h20 chemist....
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Old 06-14-2010, 11:43 PM   #4
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Default extender

If an msds has propylene glycol as an ingredient, that doesn't mean that there aren't other chemicals. There could be very small amounts of other crucial additives.

Generally, an extender is a retarder, and certain glycols act as retarders, but there can be side effects. With some acrylic resins, Texanol (an alcohol ester) is an effective retarder, but it can also be a plasticizer that can make a paint soft for months or years. DPNB (a glycol ether) is even slower than Texanol, but it swells the molecules of many acrylics and urethanes, which forms a great film, but can also permanently plasticize.

A well designed extender might have fast evaporting hydrophilic additives that get those slow ones out after they've done their job.

In short, extenders are likely blends customized for certain paints, or general additives that won't harm most paint formulas. You're playing with fire if you substitute generic solvents for formulated extenders.

There are exceptions. If a paint company makes a shellac product and specifies their extenders, it's probably just denatured alcohol with a brand name.

I heard that BM specifies their own extender for the Aura line. You would be well advised to use their extender, since it probably has specific chemicals to complement Aura without causing side effects.

You even have to be careful with water. When I manufacture a waterborne coating, I always use de-ionized water. Tap water can have strongly ionic minerals that can wreak havoc with wb's. DI H2O is expensive. The de-ionizing cartridges aren't cheap, and they're only good for around 75 gallons in my hard water area, but I have peace of mind knowing that my coatings' performance won't be compromised in long term storage.
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Old 06-15-2010, 12:18 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by H2O Paint Chemist View Post
If an msds has propylene glycol as an ingredient, that doesn't mean that there aren't other chemicals. There could be very small amounts of other crucial additives.

Generally, an extender is a retarder, and certain glycols act as retarders, but there can be side effects. With some acrylic resins, Texanol (an alcohol ester) is an effective retarder, but it can also be a plasticizer that can make a paint soft for months or years. DPNB (a glycol ether) is even slower than Texanol, but it swells the molecules of many acrylics and urethanes, which forms a great film, but can also permanently plasticize.

A well designed extender might have fast evaporting hydrophilic additives that get those slow ones out after they've done their job.

In short, extenders are likely blends customized for certain paints, or general additives that won't harm most paint formulas. You're playing with fire if you substitute generic solvents for formulated extenders.

There are exceptions. If a paint company makes a shellac product and specifies their extenders, it's probably just denatured alcohol with a brand name.

I heard that BM specifies their own extender for the Aura line. You would be well advised to use their extender, since it probably has specific chemicals to complement Aura without causing side effects.

You even have to be careful with water. When I manufacture a waterborne coating, I always use de-ionized water. Tap water can have strongly ionic minerals that can wreak havoc with wb's. DI H2O is expensive. The de-ionizing cartridges aren't cheap, and they're only good for around 75 gallons in my hard water area, but I have peace of mind knowing that my coatings' performance won't be compromised in long term storage.

Wow, thanks for the wealth of knowledge.
you know your stuff chemist
always good to learn inside the box
that's impressive!
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Old 06-15-2010, 12:29 AM   #6
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Very impressive.
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Old 06-15-2010, 08:14 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by H2O Paint Chemist View Post
If an msds has propylene glycol as an ingredient, that doesn't mean that there aren't other chemicals. There could be very small amounts of other crucial additives.

Generally, an extender is a retarder, and certain glycols act as retarders, but there can be side effects. With some acrylic resins, Texanol (an alcohol ester) is an effective retarder, but it can also be a plasticizer that can make a paint soft for months or years. DPNB (a glycol ether) is even slower than Texanol, but it swells the molecules of many acrylics and urethanes, which forms a great film, but can also permanently plasticize.

A well designed extender might have fast evaporting hydrophilic additives that get those slow ones out after they've done their job.

In short, extenders are likely blends customized for certain paints, or general additives that won't harm most paint formulas. You're playing with fire if you substitute generic solvents for formulated extenders.

There are exceptions. If a paint company makes a shellac product and specifies their extenders, it's probably just denatured alcohol with a brand name.

I heard that BM specifies their own extender for the Aura line. You would be well advised to use their extender, since it probably has specific chemicals to complement Aura without causing side effects.

You even have to be careful with water. When I manufacture a waterborne coating, I always use de-ionized water. Tap water can have strongly ionic minerals that can wreak havoc with wb's. DI H2O is expensive. The de-ionizing cartridges aren't cheap, and they're only good for around 75 gallons in my hard water area, but I have peace of mind knowing that my coatings' performance won't be compromised in long term storage.

Great Post! Not only is the information great, its written so we can understand it too!!
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Old 06-15-2010, 12:11 PM   #8
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Many thanks H20! Definitely not the reply I was expecting to receive re my crazy query. I never really thought of paint as that complex a compound before and now I have an entirely new appreciation for it.

Cheers,

Rob
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Old 06-15-2010, 01:38 PM   #9
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Many thanks H20! Definitely not the reply I was expecting to receive re my crazy query. I never really thought of paint as that complex a compound before and now I have an entirely new appreciation for it.

Cheers,

Rob
It's even more complex than you think.
There was a recent thread on this forum joking about which end of the stirring stick you should grab. One member joked about the shaped end being better for creating waves in the paint.

I, for one, wasn't laughing. The shape of the stirring blade is serious business in paint making. There are hundreds of different dispersers and impellers that can influence the chemistry of a given paint. The right blade can make life much easier for the paint chemist. The right design can even use less electricity, saving money and the environment.

A commonly used blade is made by Morehouse Cowles. It's been around so long it's out of patent. A 4" diameter version costs about $80. A much more efficient design, still under patent, and made with a CNC machine costs $684. Is it worth the money? Sure is, since it uses a lot less energy and does a much better job in a shorter time. Not every paint maker is going to buy it, since you need several of them for a manufacturing facility.
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Old 06-15-2010, 03:47 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by TDTD View Post
Crazy question but here goes...

The MSDS for Dyna Flo indicates that it's simply propylene glycol. Anyone out there ever use just straight automobile anti freeze?

What about any other everyday houshold ingredients that function as well as the pricy stuff with the fancy names we buy from the wholesalers?
Propylene glycol is used in pharmaceuticle (sp) mixtures as a humectant and a solvent. It is also used in solutions for cigar humidors. (50% distilled water & 50% P/G) you can drink it.

Ethylene Glycol is what is used in anti-freeze. Is hazardous to your health and might tint your paint green. (or whatever color it is in the bottle)


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Old 06-15-2010, 04:26 PM   #11
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I thought this was a thred on latex extender.... my wife will be disapointed
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Old 06-15-2010, 07:50 PM   #12
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Tell her to put on the latex....and you will do the extending.


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Old 06-16-2010, 01:30 AM   #13
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Propylene glycol is used in pharmaceuticle (sp) mixtures as a humectant and a solvent. It is also used in solutions for cigar humidors. (50% distilled water & 50% P/G) you can drink it.

Ethylene Glycol is what is used in anti-freeze. Is hazardous to your health and might tint your paint green. (or whatever color it is in the bottle)

Thanks for the clarification bikerboy. Propylene glycol is also a "non toxic" and more eco friendly type of antifreeze that is typically used to winterize water lines in RV's etc, or wherever children or animals may come into contact with it.

Cheers!
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Old 06-16-2010, 10:16 AM   #14
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I really need to learn and study H20's posts, If I'm doing a estimate and a customer heard me say something like that, I bet my closing rate would jump up at least 25%.

Great post and you are definitely one of the guys here that I will make a effort to read all your posts.

Pat
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Old 06-16-2010, 10:43 AM   #15
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I really need to learn and study H20's posts, If I'm doing a estimate and a customer heard me say something like that, I bet my closing rate would jump up at least 25%.

Great post and you are definitely one of the guys here that I will make a effort to read all your posts.

Pat
Yeah, but dumb it down even more...not that the potential client is unintelligent,....just that nobody like a know it all.
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Old 06-16-2010, 11:15 AM   #16
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Yeah, but dumb it down even more...not that the potential client is unintelligent,....just that nobody like a know it all.
Just go with a Cliff Clavin (Cheers) approach

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