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Old 07-31-2016, 11:47 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpaints111 View Post
The day before the job start she told me she wanted a no voc paint. It was the low tier no voc from sherwins
Flat in a light tan
Did the customer actually choose the brand and tier of the paint she wanted? Did you make any representations to her as to how this paint would perform?

I would be very interested to see a proposal for this job that the customer approved and signed (redacted, of course). If this is a contract dispute, you should be showing us here in PT the contract/proposal before any more banter goes on. I could go on and on about this and that, but until I know exactly what your agreement was with this woman, how could anyone here know who is right and who is wrong?

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I added the bid
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Old 07-31-2016, 12:57 PM   #22
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If she chose the sheen and such prior to you bidding and you told her what to expect, then she has what she paid for.
Education could've eliminated this frustration for both of ya.imo...
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Old 07-31-2016, 01:30 PM   #23
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Ok so for the first time in 20 years I have an unhappy client. She is not happy with the way the paint holds up. She wanted no voc and I did as she asked and she isn't happy. She wants the whole place redone and expects me to do it. I'm getting that even if I redo it all she won't be happy. So I am thinking of just refunding her all her money and being done with her. It's only $1500 but the thought of refunding it when I did nothing wrong just kills me.
Contract?
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Old 07-31-2016, 01:32 PM   #24
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She says it won't touchup and when she scrubs it it leaves marks.
How is she already scrubbing it? How has she already dinged walls? She knows it's flat right? Did she agree to flat beforehand?
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Old 07-31-2016, 01:37 PM   #25
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I don't understand why "refund her money is an option?" f4ck her. But, in future I'd never use sherwin Williams products, much less one of their mattes. SW sux.
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Old 07-31-2016, 01:45 PM   #26
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The only reason I would refund her is I don't want any complaints on my license. I'm realizing she is a Lil nutty.
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Old 07-31-2016, 01:49 PM   #27
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Ppl worry too much about complaints... Haters gonna hate hate hate hate...
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Old 07-31-2016, 01:58 PM   #28
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I didn't see anything about which paint would be used in the bid. Did she supply the paint and/or did she choose which paint you used? If so it's not an application error. If SW told her the paint was washable and it's not she should be taking the issue up with SW not you.
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Old 07-31-2016, 01:59 PM   #29
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The day before the job start she told me she wanted a no voc paint It was the low tier no voc from sherwins Flat in a light tan
My only concern on your end is that you used a "low tier" product. Regardless of what company it is, using a lower grade flat on walls is just asking for trouble IMO.
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Old 07-31-2016, 03:33 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Jpaints111 View Post
Ok so for the first time in 20 years I have an unhappy client. She is not happy with the way the paint holds up. She wanted no voc and I did as she asked and she isn't happy. She wants the whole place redone and expects me to do it. I'm getting that even if I redo it all she won't be happy. So I am thinking of just refunding her all her money and being done with her. It's only $1500 but the thought of refunding it when I did nothing wrong just kills me.
Been there, done that. I would select the paint myself, have her sign off on " This is it. No more free painting after this is done", and just do it. You may not get any referrals from her but at leat you have cleared your conscience by doing the right thing, even though she is wrong.
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Old 07-31-2016, 04:03 PM   #31
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Not all jobs call for "upper tier" paints. You probably used SW PM 200 no VOC flat. I used several gallons of it last week myself with great results. You're gonna run into nuts now and again. That's exactly what you have here. A cheapo, wall scrubber that wants her rooms painted TWICE (with Cashmere this time) for the 1 coat Pro Mar price.

I know how in this day of social media, etc. how a complaint may cause some amount of harm to you. You may feel obligated to move heaven and earth to appease everyone. Personally, this one sounds like a no win no matter what you do and I would have no further contact regardless. She was given good paint by SW and that would be enough for me. Whatever "storm" created will pass. Ignore and drive on. Good luck and keep doing the good work that you've been doing.

BTW, I MAY (but would probably ignore) send an email recommending the use of 2 coats of whatever paint was given to her. Also mention flat doesn't "scrub". If something needs that much attention--tile the whole d@mn house. She's a clueless scammer that has probably pulled this crap before on good people.


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Old 07-31-2016, 06:10 PM   #32
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How is she already scrubbing it? How has she already dinged walls? She knows it's flat right? Did she agree to flat beforehand?
Kids
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Old 07-31-2016, 10:25 PM   #33
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Guess I would look at the customer's situation and if they have kids, pets, or both in the house I'd strongly recommend that they consider an eggshell for the less active areas of the house and possibly even satin for areas like halls, bedrooms, and family rooms. If they still insisted on the flat then I would write up a disclaimer and have them sign it. I would also discuss the use of a higher quality paint over a lower one. If, against my recommendations, they still wanted a cheaper, flat paint, then I'd want it writing so it wouldn't come back to bite me - as it did here.
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Old 07-31-2016, 10:58 PM   #34
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Guess I would look at the customer's situation and if they have kids, pets, or both in the house I'd strongly recommend that they consider an eggshell for the less active areas of the house and possibly even satin for areas like halls, bedrooms, and family rooms. If they still insisted on the flat then I would write up a disclaimer and have them sign it. I would also discuss the use of a higher quality paint over a lower one. If, against my recommendations, they still wanted a cheaper, flat paint, then I'd want it writing so it wouldn't come back to bite me - as it did here.
I agree with all of the above, especially getting it down in writing. I also firmly believe in getting the customer's signature authorizing the work. That way, if the customer tries something funny or misunderstands the bid/contract/proposal, just show it to them and explain what was agreed upon.

I realize that hindsight is 20/20. That is why my proposals have grown and changed over the years as I understand better just what I am trying to accomplish by them - and what I am trying to avoid as well! Here is the signature blah blah from my proposal:

Acceptance of Proposal

The above prices, specifications and conditions are satisfactory and are hereby accepted. John Q. Public is authorized to do the work as specified. Payments will be made as outlined above. The signor below agrees to be responsible for full payment of the amount of this Proposal if accepted.



_________________________________________________
Signature of person authorizing above proposal and terms.

The more detailed (within reason) you can be with your bid/proposal, the more you are helping the customer understand just what it is you are proposing to do. The disclaimer RH mentions above can be incorporated within the bid itself. When the customer signs it, that means they agree to all the terms within the bid. If they have any problems afterwards that are outside the scope of the bid and do not involve anything that you might have done wrong, having the bid that they signed might give them second thoughts about trying to pull one over on you. If they try to do that anyway, just show them the bid and tell them you did what they agreed to.

Working up more detailed bids might seem tiresome in the beginning, but after a while you will get used to it. Also, you can use your newly edited bids as templates for new bids, saving you lots of time.

I am sure there are many here who can give you even better tips regarding solidifying your bids/proposals. Perhaps we will see some.
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Old 08-01-2016, 01:51 AM   #35
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Yes they were on a budget.
That is why my bid said same color aND same sheen as existing. Then I agreed to lower the price 750 bucks to help them out that is when she said I really want no voc. So because of the price cut I went with the low tier 1 coat blow and go which she said looked great and gladly paid.
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Old 08-01-2016, 06:56 AM   #36
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Yes they were on a budget.
That is why my bid said same color aND same sheen as existing. Then I agreed to lower the price 750 bucks to help them out that is when she said I really want no voc. So because of the price cut I went with the low tier 1 coat blow and go which she said looked great and gladly paid.
Ah, it was a "budget" deal. How wonderful. So you agreed to provide them with what they wanted and even lowered your price to help them out and now they are kicking you in the nuts as a result. If that is how it all went down then they got what they paid for and you owe them nothing. Send them a registered letter explaining everything like you did here and if they choose to take it further then fight it. Since this seems to have nothing to do with negligence, incompetence, or fraud on your side, I don't see how this could go down against you on your licence.

I'm in full agreement with those here who think this is a scam. They wanted inexpensive, they got inexpensive, now they want top tier for free. Sorry Charlie.
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Old 08-01-2016, 08:56 AM   #37
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The root cause of disappointment is expectations. That's why it's so important to find out what they're trying accomplish. She was willing to pay $1500 to have her whole house repainted the same color and same sheen , why? It seems from the email that walls probably looked disgusting and she was trying to make it look clean again. If that was her goal, then I would have advised her the same sheen paint isn't a good choice.
I'm also confused how it is that a flat paint won't touch up? What is she trying to touch it up with? A rag?
If it were me, I would profusely apologize that I failed to explain the limitations of a budget paint because I misunderstood her goal in having her house repainted. Because had I known her expectations I would have recommended a higher quality paint. Then I would give her a choice of the following options as a resolution:
1. Refund the money.
2. Offer to come touch up areas that look dirty once a month or as needed for one year.
3. Discount your labor a little bit to repaint with a higher grade low sheen paint.

Throw that at the wall and see what sticks.

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Old 08-01-2016, 08:57 AM   #38
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Why didn't the "experts" at SW sell you or your customer Harmony? UUUUH. What? They have that? Cheap is as cheap gets. They wanted cheap and you certainly provided that for them, so who is liable for the product quality? Why would any painter take on that liability to save a few bucks on a gallon or two of paint? Who ends up paying in the end? The customer? NO! The Sherwin Williams store that sold the paint? Nope. Guess again. THE PAINTER IS THE ONE WHO GETS SCREWED every time in this scenario.

So you use such and such paint for years and never had a problem using it. I mean, they have a store in every town you work, just a couple of miles from the jobsite most of the time. And my brothers kid drives deliveries for them in the summer. AND they give me a "great" discount on their grossly overpriced paint. That's the usual scenario anyway.

But if there is ONE job that goes to 5hit because the paint isn't up to snuff, for whatever reason whether it's just too low of a grade or the customer got a crappy paint to save money, It is ALWAYS the painter that takes the brunt of the monetary loss. Why would a "business" person expose themselves to that just because the store is nearby or the price is cheaper? Doesn't make good business sense at all. In the end it is you the painters that end up paying for things that really don't pay off in the long run. As soon as you have to repaint a job, you have lost a lot of money, and it can take weeks or even months to recoup that loss. Why take the risk? Why not just spend a few extra dollars to use an upgraded product on EVERY job? In the long run you will always come out ahead. A successful business isn't run by "just getting enough to pay the bills". You have to think much further out then that. You won't be successful for long just chasing down low end work to cover the bills and maybe end up with some extra for beer.

I know I'm preaching again, but think about it! This is a professional forum, and we all should be thinking about how to make our businesses get better and not getting ourselves into these unfortunate, money losing situations. Didn't mean to come of sounding like I am harping on the OP, but I just want to point some things out so we can all learn from his experience instead of just kind of laughing about it like it's never or will never happen to us.
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Old 08-01-2016, 09:07 AM   #39
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To be fair @PACman , not all SW paints are garbage. It was a mistake to use PM200 flat for a residential repaint. That's the takeaway here.
Also, in the proposal, I didn't see the paint quantity itemized out. I always charge per gallon for the paint I choose. If they want something other than the paint I warranty, they have to get it themselves and I tell them I can't warranty it.
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Old 08-01-2016, 09:12 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpaints111 View Post
Yes they were on a budget.
That is why my bid said same color aND same sheen as existing. Then I agreed to lower the price 750 bucks to help them out that is when she said I really want no voc. So because of the price cut I went with the low tier 1 coat blow and go which she said looked great and gladly paid.
Don't give any discount without a corresponding reason. If the client wants $750 off of the original price, you say: "I can only do it for the lower price if we use a lower grade of paint or we reduce the scope of work". This way the client understands what they are getting.

Put it all in writing. You should have the brand and grade of paint on your proposal. By the way, $2250 for that many rooms seems way under-priced.
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