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Old 06-23-2013, 06:55 PM   #1
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Default naptha or mineral spirits

Upcoming are some marine trim work. Epifanes high gloss marine varnish is being specified . It is out worldly expensive. Epifanes makes it own "brushing thinner" that ranges in price about $25.00 per 1000 ml (quart) Their specs call it "white spirits". Internet searches say that means naptha or mineral spirits but aren't they different?

We will be applying four or so coats with first one being 50 - 50 building up to 100% so the thinner is critical.

Do you know the difference between Naptha, mineral spirits and "white spirits" Are the interchangeable. Do you have experience with Epifanes?

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Old 06-23-2013, 07:12 PM   #2
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naptha is a "hotter" solvent than mineral spirits, meaning it evaporates faster. quicker drying.

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Old 06-23-2013, 07:20 PM   #3
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Specifically, you want VM&P (Varnish Makers' and Painters') NAPHTHA .
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Old 06-23-2013, 08:20 PM   #4
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Given the expense of the product, why would you deviate from there solvent? Are you spraying?

Hopefully NACE can give us a good explanation as always.
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Old 06-23-2013, 09:26 PM   #5
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I love naphtha for cleaning stuff because it evaporates so fast and clean but I have heard from an old paint sales guy that I used to know that it will flatten out the sheen of higher gloss products. Not sure why but he said that old guys would come in and complain about the finish being dull after they sprayed out some trim with oil and he would ask them if they used naphtha to thin it and that was why it was dull.

Haven't tried it myself so I don't know for sure but he was pretty knowledgeable.

Xylene would likely work if you want something hotter than mineral spirits.

Coleman has that fuel for camp stoves they call white gas and that stuff is just denatured alcohol. Probably not the same thing because the only product I've seen that uses that to thin is shellac...and that definitely wouldn't be marine grade.

If you're brushing I'd stick to mineral spirits...it will give you more open time than the Xylene or naphtha.

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Old 06-23-2013, 09:29 PM   #6
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Basically it is a difference in how it is distilled and carbon molecules. There are three types of MS and Naphtha. Likely the solvent they are recommending is stronger and therefore less is used to reduce the product. It really comes down to purity. Naphtha reduces quicker but has some effect on sheen. It evaporates quicker and is stronger. It will reduce alkyds quicker with less uses then mineral spirits. Cheap mineral spirits is up to 50% water. It is more expensive in the long run. I would use what they suggest in the amounts specified. Especially with the spec being so specific I would not deviate or cut corners. Incorporate it into the bid unless you bid after material costs were estimated.
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Old 06-23-2013, 09:31 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smakmauz View Post
I love naphtha for cleaning stuff because it evaporates so fast and clean but I have heard from an old paint sales guy that I used to know that it will flatten out the sheen of higher gloss products. Not sure why but he said that old guys would come in and complain about the finish being dull after they sprayed out some trim with oil and he would ask them if they used naphtha to thin it and that was why it was dull.

Haven't tried it myself so I don't know for sure but he was pretty knowledgeable.

Xylene would likely work if you want something hotter than mineral spirits.

Coleman has that fuel for camp stoves they call white gas and that stuff is just denatured alcohol. Probably not the same thing because the only product I've seen that uses that to thin is shellac...and that definitely wouldn't be marine grade.
Coleman Fuel isn't denatured alcohol, it's white gas, which is a straight-run naphtha. It's a little different fraction than VM&P Naphtha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphtha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coleman_fuel

Last edited by Gough; 06-23-2013 at 09:33 PM..
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Old 06-23-2013, 09:43 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gough View Post

Coleman Fuel isn't denatured alcohol, it's white gas, which is a straight-run naphtha. It's a little different fraction than VM&P Naphtha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphtha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coleman_fuel
Interesting ...I guess I just figured it was denatured alcohol because thats one of the listed uses for it. I didn't think it was safe to use a naphtha based product around food. DA seems to burn cleaner
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Old 06-23-2013, 09:56 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smakmauz View Post
Interesting ...I guess I just figured it was denatured alcohol because thats one of the listed uses for it. I didn't think it was safe to use a naphtha based product around food. DA seems to burn cleaner
There are some stoves that burn denatured; it is also commonly used as a starting fluid for some older models of white gas stoves: Svea, Optimus, etc.

Sterno is gelled denatured alcohol, IIRC.
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Old 06-23-2013, 10:53 PM   #10
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Great information. Thankyou. Some you are saying just to use the recommended stuff and I agree. I was asking for educational purposes and as alternatives if in a bind. And I am always mindful that ordinary items once they are tagged as "marine" have their prices greatly inflated. I appreciate mostly NACE's comment about water content. That in itself is enough to go with the Epifane thinner. And to squid, we are brushing. I do love working good varnish with good tools. Thinning correctly is essential. If the weather looks humid, we will have Naphtha on hand.
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Old 06-24-2013, 06:17 AM   #11
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If you know how to use vm&p naptha, you will leave your competition in the dust in terms of production rate. Work safe.
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Old 06-24-2013, 07:58 AM   #12
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speaking of Varnish, this reminds me during my down time, I should refinish my pasting table, which now has Epifanes High Gloss Varnish. The emulsion is "softer" than "brittle" urethane and is a little "self healing" when trimming on it (blade barely touches surface, but does scratch a little)

BTW, DM, I am sure you know, DO NOT THIN WITH TURPENTINE. I made that mistake once - only once. The finish seeded and was IMPOSSIBLE to sand down.

Anyway, looking at various marine suppliers, I see Pettit (was a good name when I was growing up) has a "Pettit Easypoxy Hi-Build Varnish" (#2056). Specs say "Resin: Pure Phenolic, Oil: Linseed/Tung"

Does anyone have experience with this? If it were truly high build and still "soft" like other REAL varnishes, it may be what I want.
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Old 06-24-2013, 09:21 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squid View Post
If you know how to use vm&p naptha, you will leave your competition in the dust in terms of production rate. Work safe.
If you learn how to spell it, it's even better. Hint: it's pronounced /naftha/

That's my snarky comment for the day...I hope.
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Old 06-24-2013, 08:23 PM   #14
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Sorry, I need a better respirator.
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Old 06-25-2013, 03:55 PM   #15
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I have used the Epifanes Wood Finish Gloss and Wood Finish Matte on a few jobs; was applied recently on newly installed and stained red oak skirting. They are helpful and will respond quickly if you have any questions.
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:35 PM   #16
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I was given 15 gallons of Turpentine for free yesterday by a local store that were cleaning up their shelves...any other use for it other than thinning oil paints ? Personally I have never used it as a thinner but I think my old employer from 30 years ago did use it .
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Old 06-26-2013, 08:19 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by playedout6 View Post
I was given 15 gallons of Turpentine for free yesterday by a local store that were cleaning up their shelves...any other use for it other than thinning oil paints ? Personally I have never used it as a thinner but I think my old employer from 30 years ago did use it .
15 gallons?? That's a lot of turps! We use a little when we have to make our own oil-based stain. I guess you could make a big batch of the Forest Products Lab's paintable wood preservative/sealer.

http://breenbushdesign.wordpress.com...y-witchs-brew/

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