Stained Cedar, Prime? - Paint Talk

Joewho · 08-23-2008, 04:23 AM

Still on the brick and cedar frame house.

The HO told the contractor that the stain (paint?) is peeling even though it was just done. Contractor calls in a Cabots rep. He determines that the original job wasn't done properly. Suggests complete strip and prime before using Cabots stain. It's white so I can't tell how old it is by the fading.

The Contractor agreed, but has since amended the contract to just scraping except for the dormers and rails on the deck, those are going to bare wood using stripper.

Since working on it, I've determined that the original job was fine and all the failure looks natural to me. I didn't ask how long ago it was done but it's just the same as any typical cedar needing stain.

Whats the school of thought on priming cedar before stain?

Personally, I wouldn't do it. If you're going to prime, you might as well use paint. I don't think the HO understands the properties of cedar or stain.

Cedar needs to breathe. Stains soak into the pores and hairs, it doesn't fill and seal, like paint does. Tanin or other chemicals can leach out past stain without removing it. Whereas, paint will probably peel. I'm suspecting that this house was painted rather than stained. What we're scraping off is one layer and it's too thick to be stain IMO. I could be wrong.

ewingpainting.net · 08-23-2008, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joewho

Still on the brick and cedar frame house.

The HO told the contractor that the stain (paint?) is peeling even though it was just done. Contractor calls in a Cabots rep. He determines that the original job wasn't done properly. Suggests complete strip and prime before using Cabots stain. It's white so I can't tell how old it is by the fading.

The Contractor agreed, but has since amended the contract to just scraping except for the dormers and rails on the deck, those are going to bare wood using stripper.

Since working on it, I've determined that the original job was fine and all the failure looks natural to me. I didn't ask how long ago it was done but it's just the same as any typical cedar needing stain.

Whats the school of thought on priming cedar before stain?

Personally, I wouldn't do it. If you're going to prime, you might as well use paint. I don't think the HO understands the properties of cedar or stain.

Cedar needs to breathe. Stains soak into the pores and hairs, it doesn't fill and seal, like paint does. Tanin or other chemicals can leach out past stain without removing it. Whereas, paint will probably peel. I'm suspecting that this house was painted rather than stained. What we're scraping off is one layer and it's too thick to be stain IMO. I could be wrong.

I never heard of "priming" before staining. but I have heard of conditioning the wood before staining which we always do prior to staining. This gives better control of your stain and reduces the blotches. Is the stain peeling or the clear coat peeling?

TooledUp · 08-23-2008, 06:59 AM

I always use a basecoat on new/untreated/bare timber that's for staining. That's a uk product but I guess you have a similar material over there...

plainpainter · 08-23-2008, 09:13 AM

paint companies recommend priming before staining to lock in the tannins if you are using a real light light color. So I have gotten into the habit of priming even before staining - I assume you mean oil based products? IF latex - heck no brainer, always prime - latex stain is still paint imo.

MAK-Deco · 08-23-2008, 10:33 AM

We prime cedar before applying Cabot's ProVT, also due to the tannins... (spot prime scraped areas and full prime on replacement boards)

MAK-Deco · 08-23-2008, 10:36 AM

So Joe your back in Chicago? Maybe we can hook up for coffee and talk shop...

Tonyg · 08-23-2008, 10:44 AM

Cobot ProVT requires priming of bare wood before solid stain. If the coating is failing then just scraping the affected areas and recoating just means that the other areas are going to fail under the new coat eventually. Make sure you are covered from any liability! This is one I would be careful getting in to.

MAK-Deco · 08-23-2008, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joewho

The HO told the contractor that the stain (paint?) is peeling even though it was just done. Contractor calls in a Cabots rep. He determines that the original job wasn't done properly. Suggests complete strip and prime before using Cabots stain. It's white so I can't tell how old it is by the fading.

.

I'd be wary of the Cabot rep telling you that the original job was done wrong, he is getting out of any liability.. Joe if the job is in the Chicago area, the Cabot Rep might be who I think it is (I won't name names) but hes a snake oil salesman reminds me of a used car salesmen

Do you what product is one there?? Is it ProVT or an oil?

Joewho · 08-23-2008, 11:34 AM

My guess is that the rep just helped the painter sell the job.

It's going to be solid body white. I didn't check to see if we're using provt yet, and wasn't aware you had to prime before using it.

To me, stain is stain. It's not going to last, and if you buy cedar it simply has to be maintained more often.

As far as liability, I don't have any. It's not my job!

I've been around long enough to know that this job isn't an unusual failure. It's nomal. More failure where the sun shines. Scraping won't remove material from knots, all the usual stuff. It's not falling off the house or anything.
Thanks for the replies.

MAK, pm on the way. I've been trying to get together with a couple other guys too, just haven't gotten it together yet. I'm in Cary, working in the Barrington area. Pretty far from you guys.

MAK-Deco · 08-23-2008, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joewho

It's going to be solid body white. I didn't check to see if we're using provt yet, and wasn't aware you had to prime before using it.

You don't have to prime under provt if a tannin isn't an issue, I do it to me safe.

here is the data sheet on ProVT... http://www.cabotstain.com/pdf/PROV0800.pdf

painttofish · 08-23-2008, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joewho

To me, stain is stain. It's not going to last, and if you buy cedar it simply has to be maintained more often.

Oil prime under latex stain

If there is bare wood on an exterior always use an oil primer. ProVT is a good product. IMO solid stain doesn't peel like paint but fades more. It breathes better. There is a miss conception that new cedar can be sealed with a solid paint. The natural oils in cedar that make it resist rot, are what make paint systems on new cedar fail IMO. I would suggest using a transparent stain for new cedar, build to semi-solids over time, and years later applying a solid once the cedar has aged out. I see lots of failed cedar siding and if you look at the back of the peeled sheets of paint you will see a veneer of cedar on the back. This tells me that the paint adhered but the cedar rejected the paint (couldn't breath). Cedar needs to age before solid stains or paints are applied, but I believe solid stains do breath better and should be used if a solid is spec'd for cedar.

tsunamicontract · 08-23-2008, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by painttofish

Oil prime under latex stain

If there is bare wood on an exterior always use an oil primer. ProVT is a good product. IMO solid stain doesn't peel like paint but fades more. It breathes better. There is a miss conception that new cedar can be sealed with a solid paint. The natural oils in cedar that make it resist rot, are what make paint systems on new cedar fail IMO. I would suggest using a transparent stain for new cedar, build to semi-solids over time, and years later applying a solid once the cedar has aged out. I see lots of failed cedar siding and if you look at the back of the peeled sheets of paint you will see a veneer of cedar on the back. This tells me that the paint adhered but the cedar rejected the paint (couldn't breath). Cedar needs to age before solid stains or paints are applied, but I believe solid stains do breath better and should be used if a solid is spec'd for cedar.

if breathing is an issue, why on earth would you oil prime it? That stuff does not breath at all.

painttofish · 08-23-2008, 01:44 PM

That was my point why I recommend using transparents on new wood. I simply pointed out that if you are going to use a solid latex stain that I would oil prime it first due to tannin bleed and adhesion issues. I did not say that this method is ideal on new wood. I don't buy into the self priming biz. Also if you read what I wrote you could have came to the finding that you may not be priming and sealing new wood, but aged cedar, and IMO now a solid system can work well. I color coded it for you so I trust you will better understand. Next time try slowing down a bit, maybe re-read if necessary, and I won't have to type another paragraph explaining what I already wrote.

tsunamicontract · 08-23-2008, 01:54 PM

P2F, I am fairly certain I understood what you wrote. Usually when I see "failed" solid stain it is because it is over oil primer. Stain needs to soak in to a substrate and when you seal it with oil primer, it can not do that. It is stain, not paint, even though it may seem like paint. It essentially has to be self priming due to its nature. I hear you with the concern of tannin bleeds, I wonder if that XIM product mixed in would to your latex stain would help (base coat). I see many systems of water based solid color 2 coats on new cedar that work fine (rough cedar) and look great after 8 years. I also think on new cedar a semi trans system for a few years to let the tannins do their thing and the cedar to be able to breath and age is a good idea, then maybe a coat of semi solid followed by solid color. But if you oil prime it can flake off. If you do not, typically it just starts to erode after years. The latter is much easier to maintain (just stain over it) instead of having to strip and scrape and sand. Obviously these are my opinions and this is what I see here in south central WI.

MAK-Deco · 08-23-2008, 02:27 PM

I think we have had this debate "solid stain is paint" I think the manufacturers specs for the product is what should be adhered too. ProVT does state to prime areas that problems with tannin etc...

I treat ProVT as a flat exterior coating...

bikerboy · 08-23-2008, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAK-Deco

I think we have had this debate "solid stain is paint" I think the manufacturers specs for the product is what should be adhered too. ProVT does state to prime areas that problems with tannin etc...

I treat ProVT as a flat exterior coating...

Mac's right, Cabot's recommends it's oil based Problem solver as the primer. Just went through this with a homeowner and Cabot's

bikerboy · 08-23-2008, 06:04 PM

I'd ask the contractor if he wants it done or done right. You gotta watch what bridges you burn with the contractor. We just had a job where the contractor wanted "A" and we told him (actually her) that it needed "B" and we would not do it their way and backed it up with documentation. It took over a week, but they called us back. We finished the job Thursday.

painttofish · 08-23-2008, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsunamicontract

if breathing is an issue, why on earth would you oil prime it? That stuff does not breath at all.

Because the back of the can told me to

painttofish · 08-23-2008, 06:44 PM

Tsu, do you not get tannin bleed from cedar if you don't prime?

painttofish · 08-23-2008, 06:54 PM

My point was simply this. If you have any leverage in what your customer or GC wants to put on there siding I recommend what I stated above. If I know someone wants a solid color, and they are deciding on siding, I will recommend not using cedar and that maybe they would like cement board siding. If a customer is debating a solid or transparent finish and they have raw cedar siding, I will give them my two cents. I have seen the most nightmares with smooth cedar.