Venting about commercial bidding / specs - Paint Talk

DPaint · 01-29-2010, 12:51 PM

Am I the only one who gets extremely frustrated with specs on commercial projects? I went to a pre bid yesterday for a job I estimated to be a week to 10 day project. Come to find out 3/4 of the specs don't even apply to the job. They call for epoxy coatings for slabs that don't even exist, etc. This seems to happen a lot especially on utility type projects.

Does anyone else experience this as frequently as I do?

I am fairly new to bidding strictly off of plans so I'm sure I still have a lot to learn, but I hate to think how many things I have bid too high because I am factoring for things that aren't there.

How do you guys clarify specs to make sure your bid is accurate as possible?

It doesn't seem to be too much of a problem on new construction buildings, but it really becomes difficult on smaller jobs where there isn't a defined paint schedule or especially on utility projects where there is hardly ever a defined schedule.

OK I'm done ranting but I could really use some guidance from you guys who are more experienced.

Woody · 01-29-2010, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DPaint

Am I the only one who gets extremely frustrated with specs on commercial projects? I went to a pre bid yesterday for a job I estimated to be a week to 10 day project. Come to find out 3/4 of the specs don't even apply to the job. They call for epoxy coatings for slabs that don't even exist, etc. This seems to happen a lot especially on utility type projects.

Does anyone else experience this as frequently as I do?

I am fairly new to bidding strictly off of plans so I'm sure I still have a lot to learn, but I hate to think how many things I have bid too high because I am factoring for things that aren't there.

How do you guys clarify specs to make sure your bid is accurate as possible?

It doesn't seem to be too much of a problem on new construction buildings, but it really becomes difficult on smaller jobs where there isn't a defined paint schedule or especially on utility projects where there is hardly ever a defined schedule.

OK I'm done ranting but I could really use some guidance from you guys who are more experienced.

Spend more time METTING these guys... keep bidding, and be pushy, tell them "Your a true legend"...make em laugh, show up or call there office before, during, and after you bid it.
DON'T just call one time and leave a number... "let them know, YOU care".... Be a Freaking salesman

Stay Frosty

GMack · 01-30-2010, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DPaint

Am I the only one who gets extremely frustrated with specs on commercial projects? I went to a pre bid yesterday for a job I estimated to be a week to 10 day project. Come to find out 3/4 of the specs don't even apply to the job. They call for epoxy coatings for slabs that don't even exist, etc. This seems to happen a lot especially on utility type projects.

Does anyone else experience this as frequently as I do?

I am fairly new to bidding strictly off of plans so I'm sure I still have a lot to learn, but I hate to think how many things I have bid too high because I am factoring for things that aren't there.

How do you guys clarify specs to make sure your bid is accurate as possible?

It doesn't seem to be too much of a problem on new construction buildings, but it really becomes difficult on smaller jobs where there isn't a defined paint schedule or especially on utility projects where there is hardly ever a defined schedule.

OK I'm done ranting but I could really use some guidance from you guys who are more experienced.

It's actually a huge issue on Residential New Construction. You're expected sometimes to give hard numbers on a house with no details yet: style of doors, number of colors, trim details, exterior finishes, timeline, etc. Then you're pegged as "difficult" when you try to clarify these datails.

The only advice I can give is to "be difficult" as nicely as possible and explain that you are trying to avoid issues down the road while also making your number as competitive as possible.

Woody · 01-30-2010, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMack

It's actually a huge issue on Residential New Construction. You're expected sometimes to give hard numbers on a house with no details yet: style of doors, number of colors, trim details, exterior finishes, timeline, etc. Then you're pegged as "difficult" when you try to clarify these datails.

The only advice I can give is to "be difficult" as nicely as possible and explain that you are trying to avoid issues down the road while also making your number as competitive as possible.

I didn't realize we were talking about "new homes"... I apologize for my last post...I thought we were talking about commercial/Ind. work...becouse,there is no money in new home's

GMack · 01-30-2010, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woody

I didn't realize we were talking about "new homes"... I apologize for my last post...I thought we were talking about commercial/Ind. work...becouse,there is no money in new home's

That doesn't really make sense to me but . . . cool.

**RCP** · 01-30-2010, 01:39 PM

I have the same problems with residentiall new construction as GMack. I usually find the GCs or HO want some options, and by talking to them can easily resolve any issues.
As far as commercial, yes, that is a problem, bid what is on the plan, it is worse when you get the 40 page "standard paint specs" that are not specific to the job!

**RCP** · 01-30-2010, 05:26 PM

I moved the rest of the New Construction posts here.

Maybe some of you have who have experience in commercial bids can help the OP and get this back on track.
Thanks

Induspray · 02-01-2010, 07:52 AM

9 times out of 10 when I look at the "plans and specifications" there are items in them that has no relevance to the current project. The architect or GC has copied and pasted the paint specs from other documents or used a universal type approach to cover any possible situation.

I agree to get to know the contractor because that will decide how the project will go. The specs are very ambiguous. No one ever does everything according to the specifications and I am not taking about cutting corners but there can be ways to prep a surface that are easier and there are ways that are a waste of time. How many painters wash every surface with TSP before painting?? Exactly. But I see that commonly as the reccomeded prep.

DPaint · 02-08-2010, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Induspray

9 times out of 10 when I look at the "plans and specifications" there are items in them that has no relevance to the current project. The architect or GC has copied and pasted the paint specs from other documents or used a universal type approach to cover any possible situation.

I agree to get to know the contractor because that will decide how the project will go. The specs are very ambiguous. No one ever does everything according to the specifications and I am not taking about cutting corners but there can be ways to prep a surface that are easier and there are ways that are a waste of time. How many painters wash every surface with TSP before painting?? Exactly. But I see that commonly as the reccomeded prep.

Exactly my problem. It seems that the specs try to cover every possible situation. As I mentioned before, this becomes very difficult on utility type projects where there is often no paint schedule and painting is not referenced in the prints. I feel like I am constantly put in the situation of putting in a little extra to cover everything (which usually means you won't have a chance at the job) or bidding it low and hope everything goes well (not really a responsible approach IMO.)

Washout · 02-19-2010, 10:58 AM

Many of the architect's are going to canned specks for different phases of a project. This saves them from spending and writing new specks for each new project. It's the easy way out for them. One set of specifications will cover all phases of the painting trade. Its up to you as the estimator to find the areas that pertain to you're job. If its there its covered and if its not there you dont have to include it.

high fibre · 02-20-2010, 12:00 AM

i ask hundreds of questions

the commercial contractors ive worked with appreciated this because they want to be awarded the job also.

the only times that incomplete spec caused me problems were when they wanted the bid tomorrow or somthing ridiculous.

if they wanted the bid really quick, and they didnt have enough info for me, id submit my bid, AND I WOULD SPECIFY.

any changes would be absorbed by them. (change order)

it was only an issue when they wanted it fast.

id do a lot of the work right in the print room, and the project managers office was right down the hall. ask questions, he will be glad you are asking them. he wants to look good too.

antonito · 02-23-2010, 04:33 AM

Hang on to those bid-drawings for dear life and refer back to them often. So many times huge amounts of work have appeared out of no where, and are "covered in the specs". Technically true, but how am I supposed to know how to quantify that if it's not called out on the bid drawings? This comes down to how fair the GC/owner is. I had a small office building where the bid drawings showed t-bar everywhere, and to save money they went to exposed concrete. The specs had a system for that, so they expected it to be a no cost add on to me. They got the idea from a previous job where the painter actually did accept the costs, as they kept beating him over the head with "IT'S IN THE SPECS!!!". HahahahaNO

But yeah, ask questions, and sometimes you just gotta hope for the best. You'll win some, and you'll lose some, hopefully it balances out if you minimize the risks to the best of your abilities.