Unrealistic Expectations - Paint Talk

ajpace · 01-13-2010, 12:00 PM

I believe that the biggest obstacle we face in trying to market healthier products is the problem of expectations which are unrealistic. The fact is, the safer, healthier products may not apply exactly like the toxic products of yesterday or might have a higher initial cost. I also believe that sometimes you must take a step backwards before taking two steps forward.

For example, silicate paints have fantastic potential as direct replacements for the exterior masonry finishes we all use today. Most are made from 100% natural ingredients and most are completely non-toxic. The durability for silicate paints on exterior masonry surfaces is unparalleled. However, designers, architects and contractors always try to compare them apples to apples to latex paint, which is impossible. Silicate paints are double the cost and they apply vastly different to latex, but they'll look just as good in 30 years as the day they were applied.

bikerboy · 01-13-2010, 12:42 PM

Personally, I don't want paints to last 30 years unless it is going on my house. As far as the health risks, I don't see people dropping like flys from applying, breathing or living around modern house paints. So unless a customer asks for "eco-friendly" paints, it never comes up.

ajpace · 01-13-2010, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bikerboy

Personally, I don't want paints to last 30 years unless it is going on my house. As far as the health risks, I don't see people dropping like flys from applying, breathing or living around modern house paints. So unless a customer asks for "eco-friendly" paints, it never comes up.

Is that what it would take? People dropping like flies?

Interesting. You know, I don't see people dropping like flies from the effects of asbestos, lead, mercury and cadmium, yet we are smart enough to deduce the long-term effects or the effects these ingredients have on the development stage in children. Why should it have to come to that extreme before we start shifting our thought process?

bikerboy · 01-13-2010, 01:08 PM

Hey...I am a neanderthal! I think it is a great idea, but overblown.

It's not like you don't have a financial stake in fear mongering. So how much more safe are your green products and practices? Can you provide a quatifyiable difference? What percentage safer is non toxic paint? What studies do you provide to back that up?

Again, I think it is a good idea to get the harmful crap out. I also believe there is a lot of money to be made in eco terror. So a lot of charlatans appear touting benefits that they cannot quantify.

How far does the pendulum swing towards audaciousness? At what point does it become ludicrous? We are subjected to so many things that are dangerous and bad for us, when does it stop? Do we get to the point where we are covered in UV blocking bubble wrap and breathing purified oxygen?

Show me.

ajpace · 01-13-2010, 01:47 PM

I hear you loud and clear. I usually do not try to scare the hell out of people just to get a sale or consulting gig. Unfortunately, the subject by itself can be pretty scary.

You are absolutely 100% correct in saying that the eco-terrorists and fear mongers are trying to force the issue without regard. When I started selling healthy building products over 15 years ago, the word green was just a lowly color. Now, its a religion. I continue to be one of very few who are actually trying to take a common sense approach to this. Unfortunately, common sense is not very common anymore.

My real point is, in order to take a step towards safer, healthier and better performing products, we must face the issue of higher costs and new application procedures. Silicate paints, plant oil paints, lime washes, etc. have been used in Europe for 100's of years with great success. The US as a whole does not want to embrace those technologies because the average homeowner/DIY painter would rather use a goofproof latex because its easier and cheaper. I am just trying to change that thought process.

jacob33 · 01-13-2010, 03:32 PM

I had a very long post written out that I was going to post but than I read it and it was too political all I know is the government has bigger things to worry about than green house paint.

vermontpainter · 01-13-2010, 03:46 PM

[quote=ajpace;108680]
My real point is, in order to take a step towards safer, healthier and better performing products, we must face the issue of higher costs and new application procedures.

There are piles of threads here about painters facing these issues. Are you saying that we (painters) or we (general population of paint consumers) must face this issue? If your business is geared to getting retailers on board with your program, do you come here to learn, or to try to raise paint contractors awareness? Retailer representation on this forum is rather small as I understand it, although we certainly encourage their (and your, and everyone else in the worlds) participation.

Silicate paints, plant oil paints, lime washes, etc. have been used in Europe for 100's of years with great success. The US as a whole does not want to embrace those technologies because the average homeowner/DIY painter would rather use a goofproof latex because its easier and cheaper. I am just trying to change that thought process.

Again, are you here to change that thought process or to brainstorm ideas about how to go out into the world and change that thought process?

Sorry for all the questions, just curious. Your program is intriguing, and I am trying to understand how you are using your participation here to benefit it.

ajpace · 01-13-2010, 04:19 PM

Generally, I'm on here to both learn and educate. Same reason I belong to the Home Barista forum and the Audi MotiveMag forum.

In this particular case, I have more than a passing interest.

My main business is to educate manufacturers and retailers about the proper ways to market and merchandise common-sense building materials without greenwashing or BS. The number one question i get from my clients is "why don't the contractors listen to this information?" So, I came here to find out for myself.

What I have found so far, is a group of professionals who for the most part, really care about the work they do. You folks get paid based on the quality of work you do, in the quoted amount of time. You don't get paid to test new products and you don't get paid to fix problems that occur from the use of inferior materials. That said, generally it would be in your best interest to keep using the products you are comfortable with, since you know what to expect. However, consumers are demanding differently. Maybe not to you or to others on this list, but their "demands" are reflected in the changing buying habits of consumers all over the country.

I've learned an awful lot from the responses that you folks give. I've learned that the skepticism on the contractor side is well deserved. I've also learned that the manufacturers cannot assume that putting "green" or "eco" on their labels will make them rich. My true hope is that I can take what I have learned from you and translate it to better marketing and advertising messages for the companies and retailers I work with. If I can educate them...they can better educate the consumer. If the consumer is better educated, your life will be much easier.

bikerboy · 01-13-2010, 04:58 PM

I do appreciate your posts so far. I think there will be growing consciousness about healthy alternatives. Just tired of everybody claiming green but not backing it up. Or pushing ideas because they "feel" good but do not make sense in the long run. (not saying you are)

As a contractor who is busy (like most) it would be nice to have brief, concise and factual descriptions of products. Why and how they work, including the science backing it up. Instead what I mainly see is a "green certification" from a thousand competing agencies all claiming to be "the one" to believe.

If there was a unified standard. An understandable standard based on proven science and facts, I'd be more apt to listen. Instead, what I see is a bunch of people trying to line thier pockets with green. My green. All the while not taking into consideration any cost or inconvenience that people are subjected too.

bikerboy · 01-13-2010, 04:58 PM

Am aure there are a few who are truly trying to do the right thing.

vermontpainter · 01-13-2010, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajpace

Generally, I'm on here to both learn and educate. Same reason I belong to the Home Barista forum and the Audi MotiveMag forum.

In this particular case, I have more than a passing interest.

My main business is to educate manufacturers and retailers about the proper ways to market and merchandise common-sense building materials without greenwashing or BS. The number one question i get from my clients is "why don't the contractors listen to this information?" So, I came here to find out for myself.

What I have found so far, is a group of professionals who for the most part, really care about the work they do. You folks get paid based on the quality of work you do, in the quoted amount of time. You don't get paid to test new products and you don't get paid to fix problems that occur from the use of inferior materials. That said, generally it would be in your best interest to keep using the products you are comfortable with, since you know what to expect. However, consumers are demanding differently. Maybe not to you or to others on this list, but their "demands" are reflected in the changing buying habits of consumers all over the country.

I've learned an awful lot from the responses that you folks give. I've learned that the skepticism on the contractor side is well deserved. I've also learned that the manufacturers cannot assume that putting "green" or "eco" on their labels will make them rich. My true hope is that I can take what I have learned from you and translate it to better marketing and advertising messages for the companies and retailers I work with. If I can educate them...they can better educate the consumer. If the consumer is better educated, your life will be much easier.

I appreciate your thoughts. The two points that I would make are:

Some of us do test products and work with manufacturers on what they are developing well in advance of their release.

And secondly, the changing consumer purchasing patterns dont necessarily mean that it what they are demanding, but rather, in many cases that is what the marketing is telling them they should buy. The majority of manufacturer marketing budgets are put into newer, greener product releases, and that is a function of the demands being put on them, but not by consumers. Thats a whole other thread.

ajpace · 01-13-2010, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vermontpainter

The majority of manufacturer marketing budgets are put into newer, greener product releases, and that is a function of the demands being put on them, but not by consumers. Thats a whole other thread.

Agreed. Some day I'll vent about that subject

Quote:

Originally Posted by bikerboy

If there was a unified standard. An understandable standard based on proven science and facts, I'd be more apt to listen. Instead, what I see is a bunch of people trying to line thier pockets with green. My green. All the while not taking into consideration any cost or inconvenience that people are subjected too.

The problem with a unified standard is that there is no unified definition of what "green" means. The three most-used independent certifiers, Greenguard, Greenseal and SCS, all have their own set of criteria. Plus, none of them address toxicity of ingredients that make up less than 1% of the volume. For folks with allergies, asthma and chem sensitivity, this wont help them. All in all, the independent third party certifiers are simply providing a rubber stamp for using the approved paints on a LEED project. In a home, who cares about LEED? In my years of being in this business, never has any home owner ever asked me "does this paint meet GS-11?" They don't care about that. They ask questions like "will this paint be safe for my autistic child?" or "can I use this even though I'm pregnant?" Currently there is NO standard that addresses these questions. Therefore, you have to rely on what the mfg's say and the track record their products have. This is why I do what I do.

vermontpainter · 01-13-2010, 06:02 PM

It is muddy water for many of the reasons you state. If your premise is to define green through retailers, that might be flawed.

ajpace · 01-13-2010, 06:28 PM

My premise it to define green based on what the consumers expectations of green is. There are 45 reasons why a company can call their product green. Boil those reasons down and you have three main categories: Human Health, Environmental Health, Sustainability.

Not all consumers buy green for the same reason. But, most manufacturers (and contractors) who sell green, don't do a good enough job of differentiating their sales pitch in order to make sure the customer gets what he or she wants. Through my program, I educate the manufacturers, retailers and soon, contractors, as to how to guide their customer towards the products that fit their own personal Degree of Green.

I'll be happy to go into more detail, but I'd rather not turn this into an advertisement for my company. My intentions here are simply to exchange thought and ideas.

vermontpainter · 01-13-2010, 06:34 PM

We are doing just that...exchanging ideas. I am a bit confused. On the one hand, you said above that consumers are demanding these products, but on the other hand, no one is doing a good enough job of guiding them to the right choices?

There are no right choices. There is what is best for each situation. Everyones needs are different. Same with cans of paint. They are all different. And one of things that I have learned from one of the people who I respect the most on the manufacturing side of things is that every can of paint is a can of tradeoffs. If you mess with one aspect, you affect another, or two.

All the manufacturers are shaking up their lines and formulations. We as contractors have to do our part to keep up. Sometimes we dont have as much influence as you might think in guiding customer material choices. It is very difficult to overcome the marketing machines that drive certain ideas into consumer consciousness.

ajpace · 01-13-2010, 06:58 PM

On the one hand, you said above that consumers are demanding these products, but on the other hand, no one is doing a good enough job of guiding them to the right choices?

Exactly. Lets say a customer enters their local big box store and asks the pimple-faced kid behind the paint counter, "do you have eco-friendly paint?" "Of Course!", says the kid, who was working in the landscape department yesterday. Without any regard for what the customer is really looking for, the kid just points the customer to a can of XYZ "eco" paint. Customer buys it, applies it, then is disappointed when they find out that the paint they bought was not what they expected to get.

See, consumers don't always ask the right questions, so the retailer or contractor needs to be more vigilant in getting down to brass tacks. If I can educate the salespeople about finding out what the customer REALLY wants, then there won't be so many disappointed customers with unrealistic expectations. Obviously, I'm not expecting the big box stores to change their ways and become fountains of knowledge. But, I am hoping to educate the pros and the independent paint stores they buy from.

vermontpainter · 01-13-2010, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajpace

On the one hand, you said above that consumers are demanding these products, but on the other hand, no one is doing a good enough job of guiding them to the right choices?

Exactly. Lets say a customer enters their local big box store and asks the pimple-faced kid behind the paint counter, "do you have eco-friendly paint?" "Of Course!", says the kid, who was working in the landscape department yesterday. Without any regard for what the customer is really looking for, the kid just points the customer to a can of XYZ "eco" paint. Customer buys it, applies it, then is disappointed when they find out that the paint they bought was not what they expected to get.

See, consumers don't always ask the right questions, so the retailer or contractor needs to be more vigilant in getting down to brass tacks. If I can educate the salespeople about finding out what the customer REALLY wants, then there won't be so many disappointed customers with unrealistic expectations. Obviously, I'm not expecting the big box stores to change their ways and become fountains of knowledge. But, I am hoping to educate the pros and the independent paint stores they buy from.

Isnt that the job of the manufacturers retail reps?

ajpace · 01-13-2010, 07:10 PM

Maybe. But most of them don't understand that besides the VOC rating, there are 44 other reasons you can call a product green. Ask them someday to tell you why their products are green and you'll get a lot of "um, well, its LEED certified."

First, LEED doesn't certify products. Second, so what?

Beyond that, the information is hard to come by. This is the fault of all involved in the sales chain-of-command. But, to your point, it starts with the manufacturers and THEIR salespeople.

vermontpainter · 01-13-2010, 07:13 PM

Products do get "approved" for use on leed projects. I have been down that road a couple of times.

I dont think the consumer is going to get too hung up on the definition of green, or who sets it. The dialogue at this point basically goes: Is it low voc or no voc? Does it have a odor? How much does it cost?

Wolfgang · 01-13-2010, 08:07 PM

My question, and I'm not sure if it's true or not, is that when universal tints or any tints are added to low VOC / green paints it negates those claims. Is this factual, and if so, to what degree?

Not trying to start an argument as I find this thread worthwhile. And like VP I have tested products for a variety of manufacturers over the years.