Does anyone here do stenciling??? - Paint Talk

FoilEffects · 07-27-2010, 10:32 PM

I was wondering if anyone here does stenciling? Most of my design time is making stencils to use on glass, frames or furniture. While a traditional stencil is cut from mylar (thick plastic) and does not have much detail rendering them useless IMO the stencils I do are cut on my 42" plotter. The detail is unbelievable as you are not stuck with the tradition stop points so the stencil doesnt fall apart. Downfall to my stencils are that they are single use. Meaning once you apply them to the surface and pull it from the surface after use they are junk.

Here is the detail that you can get from a stencil that I use... The one I am showing you is for a fire dept mirror that I did for a firefighter. But the sky is the limit with killer wall graphics. Just wondering if anyone has used stencils to add to their business.

Below the FF symbol is a panel that I do on furniture, frames and mirror. The detail is amazing what you can get from a vinyl stencil in comparison to mylar.

Retired · 07-28-2010, 05:37 AM

Both types of stencils can be made by most sign shops. There are thousands of stencil patterns on the net that are of both types. Simple stencils can be hand cut from even an old manilla folder. I even had a brass stencil for Plimsol lines. The stencil material is almost endless from metal to rubber to even human hair. Even different kinds of screenwire fencing can be used as a resist.

A good source of stencil artwork that is not copyrighted or trademarked is from Dover Publications. I have a couple somewhere that the artwork is printed on heavy cardstock and just need cutting. Resizing of these is easy for a sign shop. Dozens of sources for pre-cut and ready to go stencils on the web.

Tons of books on how to stencil, web sources ect.

Stencils can be anything. One guy who is really famous in the stencil world is a guy called "Banksy". He is famous for stencilling all kind of things including an elephant.

Any search engine will provide more than most painters will ever need.

CApainter · 07-28-2010, 08:33 AM

FoilEffects,

Are you cutting vinyl, weeding, then applying the stencil to a surface using releasing material?

I've made stencils this way on my plotter, but they're a one shot deal.

FoilEffects · 07-28-2010, 08:37 AM

Ok retired, do you stencil or just "google"???

Sign shops can cut images for you or if you do it a lot you can buy a plotter. Dover design books are ok, I own about 50 of them but the images are harder to work with then vector images. So do you actually do stenciling?

Retired · 07-28-2010, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoilEffects

Ok retired, do you stencil or just "google"???

Sign shops can cut images for you or if you do it a lot you can buy a plotter. Dover design books are ok, I own about 50 of them but the images are harder to work with then vector images. So do you actually do stenciling?

I haven't done a Plimsol line for awhile thats true. I stencil less since I retired and I have yet to Google how to use those stencils made from human hair.

Is it not true that some of the Dover images that are on CD-ROM are vector images? I think I read somewhere maybe even on Google or another search engine that there is a small charge for vectoring and that some sign shops are able to vector an image as well as cut many types of stencil material in house and locally.

If search engines and the net don't provide, I would suggest a local library that may have books on stencilling or an interlibrary loan system in place.

Did I stencil? Yes. It's really pretty easy to do especially on flat surfaces and something to show a potential customer when it's show and tell time.

One area I did avoid was any stencilling of hemispheres for total coverage. The math is a nightmare. If you have an easier method or your plotter is programmed to do domes, maybe you could share some of this with those who do not have plotters so we could communicate better with sign shop sources.

FoilEffects · 07-28-2010, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retired

I haven't done a Plimsol line for awhile thats true. I stencil less since I retired and I have yet to Google how to use those stencils made from human hair.

Is it not true that some of the Dover images that are on CD-ROM are vector images? I think I read somewhere maybe even on Google or another search engine that there is a small charge for vectoring and that some sign shops are able to vector an image as well as cut many types of stencil material in house and locally.

If search engines and the net don't provide, I would suggest a local library that may have books on stencilling or an interlibrary loan system in place.

Did I stencil? Yes. It's really pretty easy to do especially on flat surfaces and something to show a potential customer when it's show and tell time.

One area I did avoid was any stencilling of hemispheres for total coverage. The math is a nightmare. If you have an easier method or your plotter is programmed to do domes, maybe you could share some of this with those who do not have plotters so we could communicate better with sign shop sources.

Great, yeah wasnt doubting your abilty as you do sound like you have done plenty.

With Dover art books, some of the CDs have what is known as .eps images which should allow you to enlarge it however most Dover stuff needs a LOT of cleaning up and fixing before you can ever cut it and have the computer read it. Dover also put out new books that are vector images HOWEVER I bought into them and they did vectorize them but didnt clean them prior to doing so. Stenciling honestly is my favorite thing and that is why I bought my first plotter now over 10 years ago. Since my first plotter which was very generic I have moved up from what once was a 24" generic to a 54" generic (dont get me wrong they do the job, they just take a lot longer) to what I have now which is a 42" Graphtec FC7000. The new machine that I have can cut a continuous boarder up to 50' long. However I dont know any human that can put it up so normally I cut borders for moldings up to 4-5' at a time.

While it is true that a sign shop can cut almost anything for you, most will not do mylar stencils as those are best cut on a laser table (mine can cut them but I dont). Sign companies also charge a lot more to cut special designs as everything for them becomes very very custom. I personally think it best that you buy a plotter and cut your own but if that is not possible there are a lot of little shops that will do it for you. To me nothing adds to a finish (even straight paint) like a stencil. I use mine with paint, stain, glaze, silvering, sandblasting, glass etching, gilding and a lot more...

IMO Homeowners love personalization. Example you are painting a little girls room and she takes ballet so you do a silhouette of a ballet dancer in a accent to her wall color with her name above it and you are starting on something unique. What I like is with some software and a picture of the little girls room you can show the homeowner what it will look like prior to doing it which defiantly sells them on the idea!

Retired · 07-28-2010, 05:41 PM

Plenty I'm afraid to say,would be an overstatement. Buying a plotter might be great but I'm retired.

One of the benefits of working with a local sign shop is that it's easy to physically see the end result in a very short time span. This would include types of stock, fonts, layouts ect., rather than protracted long distance shipping, phone calls and more Emailing that most really want to do. Me, I'd rather be playing golf of fishing to tell the truth.

Good luck in your business and I hope you will live long and prosper. I swiped that from Mr. Spock.

FoilEffects · 07-28-2010, 10:41 PM

I agree it would be easier to just work with a local sign company do it but many of them are way too busy and don't stock the right type of vinyl. Before I bought my first plotter I tried to get sign companies do it for me and they always wanted design fees. Back then I think the design fee was $45 per hour and now it is $65. I cut stencils for for a bunch of paint companies that are local to me and a bunch of faux finishers that I am friends with but sometimes it is a hassle when doing it long distance.

Retired · 07-29-2010, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoilEffects

I agree it would be easier to just work with a local sign company do it but many of them are way too busy and don't stock the right type of vinyl. Before I bought my first plotter I tried to get sign companies do it for me and they always wanted design fees. Back then I think the design fee was $45 per hour and now it is $65. I cut stencils for for a bunch of paint companies that are local to me and a bunch of faux finishers that I am friends with but sometimes it is a hassle when doing it long distance.

Not being a plotter guy, I looked up that Graphtec FC7000. It looks like that is the same machine that one of the sign companies I used had in thier shop. The machine sounds great and if I am reading the specs right, it will cut a whole bunch of materials even 50 mil rubber for abrasive etching of glass.

I avoided the design fees by presenting finished artwork or just choosing fonts and designs from thier software.

To compete with the sign companies, at least the ones in large metro areas do you find you have to undercut thier prices or do you waive setup and design fees for your regular customers and friends. Not asking for any princing here since that is between you and your customers and friends but one of those super plotters has to get paid off somehow.

If you have any wise words on what to do to fit domes with stencils, that would be real interesting. There might even be an algorhythm that does just that that, the sign shops are not aware of.

Another question if you have time. What effect does different paints have on the adhesive on those one time use stencils? Will some paints sort of melt the adhesive or it is better to stick to paints that won't melt the adhesive? I am thinking in terms of maybe a one time stencil that is done in lacquer or even something hot like conversion varnish as opposed to a waterbased paint.

FoilEffects · 07-29-2010, 03:09 PM

Man you ask all the right questions! I dont use normal vinyl, I use Paint Mask which is semi resistant to things that go on hot (conversion varnish, lacquer and xlyne products). In fact the spray mask can take temps up to 350 degrees for short periods of time. While nothing is perfect the paint mask is the same stuff that car guys use to spray flames on a car. It can handle everything from hot paints to mild/medium etching on glass.

As far as charging, I'm very fair. I rarely charge a design fee, I have fonts that I pay up to $100 each for that I love so that you can do things unique. Most sign shops are not nearly as high tech when it comes to this kinda stuff as I am and honestly they do not need to be. I belong to sign forums as well where most of them just do small stuff and cut words, there designs are very limited and if you go to a metro based sign shop you are going to pay a premium for layout and design. I do not do that. Stencils in general I wouldnt say are inexpensive as my starting price is $7.50 per sf for cut vinyl and I go as high as $12.50 per sf depending on the detail. My favorites are layered finishes which honestly most companies do not deal with. Sign shops in general are all about production and I have no one locally that would buy a roll of spray mask just to cut you some words to add to a wall.

The main difference in paint mask to sign vinyl is the aggressive nature of the adhesive and how permanent it is. Mine bonds well and acts well with paint and when needed removes just as easy. When I cut wall words for people that they want to directly apply I use Oracal 631 which is a exhibition vinyl meaning that it will release without damaging the substrate. There is a lot to know about stencils over and above the $5000 price tag of the plotter.

I never bought my plotter to cut things for other people, I bought it to cut things for my business and making my business unique. I used to do a ton of super designed furniture as well as really cool ceiling medallions.

Retired · 07-29-2010, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoilEffects

Man you ask all the right questions! I dont use normal vinyl, I use Paint Mask which is semi resistant to things that go on hot (conversion varnish, lacquer and xlyne products). In fact the spray mask can take temps up to 350 degrees for short periods of time. While nothing is perfect the paint mask is the same stuff that car guys use to spray flames on a car. It can handle everything from hot paints to mild/medium etching on glass.

As far as charging, I'm very fair. I rarely charge a design fee, I have fonts that I pay up to $100 each for that I love so that you can do things unique. Most sign shops are not nearly as high tech when it comes to this kinda stuff as I am and honestly they do not need to be. I belong to sign forums as well where most of them just do small stuff and cut words, there designs are very limited and if you go to a metro based sign shop you are going to pay a premium for layout and design. I do not do that. Stencils in general I wouldnt say are inexpensive as my starting price is $7.50 per sf for cut vinyl and I go as high as $12.50 per sf depending on the detail. My favorites are layered finishes which honestly most companies do not deal with. Sign shops in general are all about production and I have no one locally that would buy a roll of spray mask just to cut you some words to add to a wall.

The main difference in paint mask to sign vinyl is the aggressive nature of the adhesive and how permanent it is. Mine bonds well and acts well with paint and when needed removes just as easy. When I cut wall words for people that they want to directly apply I use Oracal 631 which is a exhibition vinyl meaning that it will release without damaging the substrate. There is a lot to know about stencils over and above the $5000 price tag of the plotter.

I never bought my plotter to cut things for other people, I bought it to cut things for my business and making my business unique. I used to do a ton of super designed furniture as well as really cool ceiling medallions.

Asking questions is a great way to learn about all kinds of things. Taking things for face value especially on the internet is not. If it was I would be rolling in about 17 billion Nigerian dollars.

Did some flames years back, I cheated and use a template made up from a flamejob by Von Dutch. I used all 3M masking. Doing mostly work in large metro areas there are sometimes wholesalers for products not found in regular paint stores.

I can see that there is a great deal to that end of the business. I think it's great to find that niche and stick with it and make some money too.

Do you think there might be other specialty shops like yours in other metro areas so that the painters and contractors here don't have to use sign shops so much and could interface with specialists in thier own backyards, so to speak. The actual stencilling is pretty easy and done well could be one more tool for any pro.

I have another question. If a person wanted to buy a precut stencil from one of the online stencil houses, can the actual stencil material be specified so as to be compatible with a given paint? At 7-8 bucks a foot for a stencil that can only be used once, I would sure like to know if my paint is going to cause problems. Same thing with other masking products. The information is out there if one knows how to look.

Roadog · 07-29-2010, 08:44 PM

I stencil. Mostly commercial/churches. Some residential. Just use mylar as I cut myself and i'm old school. Works with any paint, any solvent.

NEPS.US · 07-29-2010, 09:28 PM

I use stencils to mark all of my ladders and tools. For example I go to Home Depot and get a pack of stencils and a can of red spray paint. I really like red. I get the N, E, P, and the S, tape them together and use the spray paint to paint my initials. This is about as far as I can go with stencils. You guys do great work!

FoilEffects · 07-29-2010, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roadog

I stencil. Mostly commercial/churches. Some residential. Just use mylar as I cut myself and i'm old school. Works with any paint, any solvent.

Is this Marlow??? I would say you stencil, you do beautiful work.

FoilEffects · 07-29-2010, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEPS.US

I use stencils to mark all of my ladders and tools. For example I go to Home Depot and get a pack of stencils and a can of red spray paint. I really like red. I get the N, E, P, and the S, tape them together and use the spray paint to paint my initials. This is about as far as I can go with stencils. You guys do great work!

FoilEffects · 07-29-2010, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retired

Asking questions is a great way to learn about all kinds of things. Taking things for face value especially on the internet is not. If it was I would be rolling in about 17 billion Nigerian dollars.

Did some flames years back, I cheated and use a template made up from a flamejob by Von Dutch. I used all 3M masking. Doing mostly work in large metro areas there are sometimes wholesalers for products not found in regular paint stores.

I can see that there is a great deal to that end of the business. I think it's great to find that niche and stick with it and make some money too.

Do you think there might be other specialty shops like yours in other metro areas so that the painters and contractors here don't have to use sign shops so much and could interface with specialists in their own backyards, so to speak. The actual stenciling is pretty easy and done well could be one more tool for any pro.

I have another question. If a person wanted to buy a precut stencil from one of the online stencil houses, can the actual stencil material be specified so as to be compatible with a given paint? At 7-8 bucks a foot for a stencil that can only be used once, I would sure like to know if my paint is going to cause problems. Same thing with other masking products. The information is out there if one knows how to look.

The mask that I use I have sprayed acid at it, shot it with Permalac Lacquer, etched glass with it, flooded it with silvering materials. Below is some of things that I have done with spray mask and the list goes on and on! I also use a 10 and 25 mil Harto spray mask for deep cutting on glass and mirror and carving glass for 3d designs. The vacuum head sitting next to the mirror is 1 of 4 sandblasters that I have. It is a on-site blaster which blasts the design and recovers the material at the same time. I can do as large of panels that I want. I do a lot of company logos so that one comes in handy.

As for there being shops all over that do what I do? I dont know. I have cut a couple of things for people on here a couple years back but unless it isnt really time consuming I dont want to get into it right now. I already cut for about 25-30 people and it is ok but when they all hit me at once it is a lot (not for me to keep up with) but to cut and run my mirror business. I thought about next year having my neice do all the cutting and design and opening a stencil division as I have millions of designs. As for right now that doesnt seem like a great move.

Retired · 07-30-2010, 04:32 AM

I kind of like the idea of KISS and being able to re-use a handcut or ready made stencil. Would there be a list of materials or specific solvents that the manufacturer of the stock you are using recommends not using. At the price/ft on a large one time uses stencil, it would be a shame to mess something up including the stencil itself not to mention whatever it might be that is to be stencilled. Aside from the normal wear and tear on a resist type for glass and stone or metal. Have you had any problems with the adhesive pulling away using really fast dry paints or even acrylics that are fast cure and shrink like crazy when the polymerization starts or do you just pull the stencil at a given time like you would pull tape when the paint or coating is still a little wet to get a nice crisp edge?

Are there any materials that are rated above 350 degrees? I guess the 350 is F and not C.

Sounds like you are keeping busy. I hope you don't get overloaded with requests for stencilling ladders.

FoilEffects · 07-30-2010, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retired

I kind of like the idea of KISS and being able to re-use a handcut or ready made stencil. Would there be a list of materials or specific solvents that the manufacturer of the stock you are using recommends not using. At the price/ft on a large one time uses stencil, it would be a shame to mess something up including the stencil itself not to mention whatever it might be that is to be stencilled. Aside from the normal wear and tear on a resist type for glass and stone or metal. Have you had any problems with the adhesive pulling away using really fast dry paints or even acrylics that are fast cure and shrink like crazy when the polymerization starts or do you just pull the stencil at a given time like you would pull tape when the paint or coating is still a little wet to get a nice crisp edge?

Are there any materials that are rated above 350 degrees? I guess the 350 is F and not C.

Sounds like you are keeping busy. I hope you don't get overloaded with requests for stencilling ladders.

Every stencil material is different. In vinyl there is stencil film (thin blue mylar) with adheasive. Then there is paint mask (this is what I use a lot), then there is the Hartco line (thicker green material which is semi rubber with adheasive) this can take heavy continued blasting or carving. The only thing that I can suggest is that you find something that you are interested in and then google the msds for the specs.

CApainter · 07-30-2010, 11:09 AM

The MSDS would only tell you what the hazards are if you ingested the vinyl.

You probably want the TDS or other specification document.

FoilEffects · 07-30-2010, 01:58 PM

The TDS will give you more specifics but the MSDS will name off the solvent or water based product used in the adhesive. It also tells you the material of the vinyl as some people are allergic to latex.

I am not saying you are wrong, as you are right. But the MSDS mentions all of the things that you need to know as well. I just call the manufacturer as most of them are happy to tell you what you can and cannot use it with.