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Old 12-29-2016, 01:23 PM   #21
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The whole reason many got into trades was not to punch a clock. I've never ever made guys do it or done it myself in all my years. Yeah I know you want to track productivity there's ways to do that without punching a clock.

How did we ever survive and run profitable business before technical bullsh@t. I may be older and maybe grumpy but was so so so much better life in the old days. And so much more enjoyable. It's a freakn rat race today and EVERYBODY is a contractor.

Ok with that said just implant a tracking device in your employees neck and have them scanned ��������
I can appreciate your old school ways although you may be onto something with the tracking device. Maybe a remote control zapper too? A little motivation cant hurt every now and then.
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Old 12-29-2016, 03:57 PM   #22
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I can appreciate your old school ways although you may be onto something with the tracking device. Maybe a remote control zapper too? A little motivation cant hurt every now and then.
One company I worked for had a fob system. You punch in with a green fob, she out with a red. The times are tracked automatically, and a 30 min lunch deducted automatically. It wasn't my favorite set up because I rarely took lunch, and sometimes had to do paid work errands after I left site.
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I can appreciate your old school ways although you may be onto something with the tracking device. Maybe a remote control zapper too? A little motivation cant hurt every now and then.
One company I worked for had a fob system. You punch in with a green fob, she out with a red. The times are tracked automatically, and a 30 min lunch deducted automatically.

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Old 12-29-2016, 04:32 PM   #23
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The whole reason many got into trades was not to punch a clock. I've never ever made guys do it or done it myself in all my years. Yeah I know you want to track productivity there's ways to do that without punching a clock.

How did we ever survive and run profitable business before technical bullsh@t. I may be older and maybe grumpy but was so so so much better life in the old days. And so much more enjoyable. It's a freakn rat race today and EVERYBODY is a contractor.

Ok with that said just implant a tracking device in your employees neck and have them scanned ��������
^This is exactly what I was trying to express but was accused, by the OP, of not providing constructive criticism.

I've been in the trade for forty years and never once punched a clock, or had to micro manage my time in the way this thread suggests. And you're spot on describing the double standards in terms of former employees rarely being tasked with strict time management practices, but suddenly wanting to implement a Del Monte Cannery style time clock procedure, albeit over a personal gadget with fancy software options once they become self employed.

The employee and employer relationship requires an element of trust. In my opinion, time clocks seem to convey "I trust that virtual time clock before I trust an actual person". It just seems like a real disadvantage to employee moral.

And as a personal experience, I can tell you that the more digital tools you require the rank and file to use, in terms of email accounts, time clocks, maps, voice mail, text messaging, photo and film capabilities, calendars, and task management apps, the less productivity there will be. I've seen it happen with my own eyes. And those don't even include the digital abuses not blocked by a company firewall. Things like Youtube viewing, music searching, Snood, Filthy Birds or whatever.

And there in lies the problem with implementing sophisticated digital gadgetry and applications onto a low to moderately skilled work force. But it does satisfy that techy appetite we all seem to have in this internet age of ours. Unfortunately, the majority of tradesmen aren't in an office cubical text flirting with Dolores, the new gal in accounts payable.
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Old 12-29-2016, 05:30 PM   #24
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^This is exactly what I was trying to express but was accused, by the OP, of not providing constructive criticism.

I've been in the trade for forty years and never once punched a clock, or had to micro manage my time in the way this thread suggests. And you're spot on describing the double standards in terms of former employees rarely being tasked with strict time management practices, but suddenly wanting to implement a Del Monte Cannery style time clock procedure, albeit over a personal gadget with fancy software options once they become self employed.

The employee and employer relationship requires an element of trust. In my opinion, time clocks seem to convey "I trust that virtual time clock before I trust an actual person". It just seems like a real disadvantage to employee moral.

And as a personal experience, I can tell you that the more digital tools you require the rank and file to use, in terms of email accounts, time clocks, maps, voice mail, text messaging, photo and film capabilities, calendars, and task management apps, the less productivity there will be. I've seen it happen with my own eyes. And those don't even include the digital abuses not blocked by a company firewall. Things like Youtube viewing, music searching, Snood, Filthy Birds or whatever.

And there in lies the problem with implementing sophisticated digital gadgetry and applications onto a low to moderately skilled work force. But it does satisfy that techy appetite we all seem to have in this internet age of ours. Unfortunately, the majority of tradesmen aren't in an office cubical text flirting with Dolores, the new gal in accounts payable.
The issue we have is we're all control freaks. If there is a simple way to control it with a relatively inexpensive techy solution then it will get used by the majority. I've talked over the punch in/out procedures and taught my guys how to use the app. They're happy we have the app. They said they like how they can see their hours pile up and see their paycheck go up every day. They dont have a problem with when they punch in or out. We dont look at it like its a matter of trust, just how we record the hours.

They're also in their mid 20's so they're used to the tech. But I do see your point on how tech can be anti productive. Its rare for 30 minutes to go by without someone pulling out their phone to check FB, messages or whatever. I dont see how that can be avoided, I'm not going to make them check their phone at the door and I'm not going to always be there to look over their shoulder.

So the tech distraction is already there. Might as well use it to have them punch in. If they are over on their hours and margins are consistently on the low end I know we need to take a look at the operation and make adjustments. Maybe one or two guys are compulsive about watching youtube, facebook, etc. But then again a foreman isnt going to let that fly if it affects their bonus.

Really, all we need is to have a small EMP device in the home that shuts down all phones, then we're good. But it better not mess with my festools.
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Old 12-30-2016, 01:44 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by thinkpainting/nick View Post
The whole reason many got into trades was not to punch a clock. I've never ever made guys do it or done it myself in all my years. Yeah I know you want to track productivity there's ways to do that without punching a clock.

How did we ever survive and run profitable business before technical bullsh@t. I may be older and maybe grumpy but was so so so much better life in the old days. And so much more enjoyable. It's a freakn rat race today and EVERYBODY is a contractor.

Ok with that said just implant a tracking device in your employees neck and have them scanned ��������
Whats the difference between "punching a clock" and writing down your hours everyday? Seems the same to me. Both ways to track hours you have worked. We use TSheets in our compnay and the main reason we went to that system is to save on paper work every month. When we had the paper time sheets, you would spend hours entering and job costing them to quickbooks and now TSheets does all that work in 2 mins. Lots of the guys like it because they dont have to fill in their time sheets daily or try to remember where they worked because they skipped it a few days. The whole tracking of the guys and seeing where they are at any point of their shift is just a bonus to the system.
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Old 12-30-2016, 03:44 PM   #26
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Whats the difference between "punching a clock" and writing down your hours everyday? Seems the same to me. Both ways to track hours you have worked.
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Old 12-30-2016, 04:25 PM   #27
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Honesty.
I'm not sure if honesty is the difference. It's more the feeling of good faith, respect or being judged. All emotional responses to a system or time clock. Everyone wants to feel like their boss, friend or co-worker looks at them in high regard. Nobody wants to feel like there is a system put forth that would circumvent any dishonest action they may take because after all, they are of high moral fiber that would never steal from their boss. These systems take out the ability for people to exercise their good character. But again, those are all emotional responses to a business system not intended to make anyone feel a certain way. I trust my guys 100 percent, we just want to keep track of the hours efficiently.
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Old 12-30-2016, 06:05 PM   #28
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I'm not sure if honesty is the difference. It's more the feeling of good faith, respect or being judged. All emotional responses to a system or time clock. Everyone wants to feel like their boss, friend or co-worker looks at them in high regard. Nobody wants to feel like there is a system put forth that would circumvent any dishonest action they may take because after all, they are of high moral fiber that would never steal from their boss. These systems take out the ability for people to exercise their good character. But again, those are all emotional responses to a business system not intended to make anyone feel a certain way. I trust my guys 100 percent, we just want to keep track of the hours efficiently.
When I was the boss I was always watching the clock, etc. Now that I'm an employee again I look at what time I start, what time I leave and email it in. Having steady employment(especially in my situation) is worth more than an extra half hour, or 3. The dishonest ones always get found out.

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Old 12-31-2016, 11:42 AM   #29
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When I was the boss I was always watching the clock, etc. Now that I'm an employee again I look at what time I start, what time I leave and email it in. Having steady employment(especially in my situation) is worth more than an extra half hour, or 3. The dishonest ones always get found out.

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I agree. Typically, bad employees get weeded out by their peers rather than their employer.

And for many employees, where there are few to no co-workers, it's actually dreadful working next to the "boss". They're always thinking you're cheating them, not meeting their high standards(lol!), and basically seem to be constantly toting the burden of some preconceived notion that by virtue of being self employed, they are obligated to demonstrate their superior knowledge by either flagrant abuse, or passive abuse.

Throw in the fancy techno gizmos and gadgets that claim to give even the most modest of mom and pop shops a business advantage, suddenly workers are being poked and prodded to move along like a herd of cattle.
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Old 12-31-2016, 01:14 PM   #30
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I agree. Typically, bad employees get weeded out by their peers rather than their employer.

And for many employees, where there are few to no co-workers, it's actually dreadful working next to the "boss". They're always thinking you're cheating them, not meeting their high standards(lol!), and basically seem to be constantly toting the burden of some preconceived notion that by virtue of being self employed, they are obligated to demonstrate their superior knowledge by either flagrant abuse, or passive abuse.

Throw in the fancy techno gizmos and gadgets that claim to give even the most modest of mom and pop shops a business advantage, suddenly workers are being poked and prodded to move along like a herd of cattle.
Really?.... hmm. Not dreadful working along side, for or with either of my bosses, who are regular, respectful conscientious people. Actually I guess they are irregular and extraordinary because they're good people, both older, humble, and work onsite every day with nothing but.positivity.
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Old 12-31-2016, 01:36 PM   #31
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True, not all owner-operators are as CA described. But I've known enough of them like that to know there is no shortage of them either.
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Old 12-31-2016, 07:26 PM   #32
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Really?.... hmm. Not dreadful working along side, for or with either of my bosses, who are regular, respectful conscientious people. Actually I guess they are irregular and extraordinary because they're good people, both older, humble, and work onsite every day with nothing but.positivity.
I worked with a contractor for eleven years who was a fantastic employer when he was hustling up work and doing the things business owners should do, like manage a business for example, but he was absolutely a chore to work with side by side.

It was pretty funny because there'd be this silent competition where he would desperately try to keep up with me. I mean for real! I had twenty years of youth on this guy and he would try to show me up. He finally gave up and trusted me on my own.
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Old 12-31-2016, 07:33 PM   #33
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Now that I think about it, I've always liked the dynamics where the boss was at least ten years older than myself. Maybe that doesn't matter much these days as I head into my late fifties. But as a strapping and capable young man, I despised working for someone my own age. I mean, the superiority complex was as present as an air biscuit in a crowded elevator.
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Old 01-01-2017, 12:56 AM   #34
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To make this fair we do not discuss bonuses at all.

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whos we? you tell your employees not to discuss bonuses with each other?
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Old 01-01-2017, 09:52 AM   #35
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whos we? you tell your employees not to discuss bonuses with each other?
My partner and myself and the employees. It's actually against labor laws for people to discuss pay rates and bonuses, I have yet to hear of this obscure law being enforced. But to keep it fair and not cause issues we tell anyone on the crew no talking about bonuses, pay rates I don't care, they can talk all day about that.

Sorry not everyone deserves a bonus or a safety pin.
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