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Old 12-26-2016, 03:10 PM   #1
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Default Primer for skim coats

I recently posted a thread on what anyone's opinion was on Zinsser 123 PLUS. Let me explain my application.

I paint condos for a GC who does remodeling in some hi-rises in Chicago. The GC does much of the work himself. I do the priming and painting. I am starting to do some skim coating as well.

The GC has his preferences on how he wants things done. For example, he wants as little brushing done as possible as he hates brush marks in paint. This means that I have to roll all the trim where possible. That is the look he wants, period. I cannot avoid cutting walls gainst ceiling without a brush, but if it were possible to cut in with a roller, he would have me do that.

The buildings he remodels in were built in the early 1960's and have concrete and plaster walls and ceilings. The original finish of walls and ceilings is a pronounced orange peel. Most of his clients want smooth and flat now, so he does a LOT of skim coating.

His basic practice is to do a couple of skim coats with Easy Sand and finish off with USG Blue TOP (the one that dries a light yellow). He sands this, then I come along, vac the ceilings and walls, then, as per his wishes, apply a solid coat of Zinsser 123 (He used to use Kilz 2, but I was able to convince him to switch tyo 123). The reason he wants a white prime coat is so he can see all the imperfections that he missed. It is much easier to catch these when the surface is painted white. After I prime, he skims all the mistakes he could not see earlier, then i come back and prime if needed, or just put on 2 coats of paint.

If it were up to me, after the initial skim coating is done, I would apply a solid coat of Gardz, then prime with 123. My reason for using Gardz first is as follows: when I first started rolling primer over the Blue Top, I found that as I was tipping the edge of the roller to squeeze out excess paint (as I have done for years) I was drawing lines in the soft surface that the Blue Top creates! Using Gardz first helps solidify the skim-coated surface and make it harder, in addition to sealing the surface so the water in the primer or paint does not get sucked up into the surface. And to help with the tape-pulling test.

The GC does not want the added expense of applying a coat of Gardz first, so I have to just prime. Since I have seen tape pull off both 123 primer and paint on the last condo we did, I am wondering if 123 PLUS or some other white primer would better soak into the skim coated surfaces and give a better bonding surface for the paint to adhere to.

Here is the question:

With all that in mind, does anyone here think that using 123 PLUS instead of regular 123 will result in a better bonding surface, or is there (PACman, here is your entrance) another white pigmented product that will both provide a white, uniform surface to find and patch mistakes in the skim coating as well as providing a superior bonding surface akin to what Gardz provides?

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Old 12-26-2016, 03:40 PM   #2
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Try using a thinner product like bm super hide. I would spray but that's up to you and your gc. You should also try a different rolling technique instead of squeezing the paint from the edges of the roller. It should go easier than that.
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Old 12-26-2016, 03:55 PM   #3
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Try using a thinner product like bm super hide. I would spray but that's up to you and your gc. You should also try a different rolling technique instead of squeezing the paint from the edges of the roller. It should go easier than that.
Thanks, I will look into super hide. I have never had a problem with drawing lines with a roller edge until rolling over Blue Top at these condos. I will have to adjust.

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Old 12-26-2016, 04:56 PM   #4
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i actually don't have enough test data to tell you if the 123 plus will be a better product to use in this application. One concern I have is that the 123 plus data sheet does not mention sandability. Do you want to put a non-sandable primer on a skim coat? I don't really know to be honest with you. If the GC wants to use a pigmented primer so he can see any surface imperfections that leads me to believe there may be some sanding required. Maybe a sandable drywall primer/surfacer might be what you want. IDK what products the box stores have, but I'm pretty sure SW would have one as there is one in the P&L product line. It probably won't give you the square foot coverage the 123 would though although it should be a little cheaper. (my price is $17.75/gal contractor)
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Old 12-26-2016, 06:29 PM   #5
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I'm curious, but are you typically finding that you're having to patch or re-skim a lot of mistakes? If not you could probably apply Gardz and a coat of paint before looking for imperfections. At this point you could fix anything, apply a spot coat of Gardz and paint before proceeding to your final coat of paint.

Also, I'm curious why you aren't spraying out the trim packs?


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Old 12-26-2016, 07:35 PM   #6
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One primer that comes to mind is zinsser shieldz. It should seal well because it's a wallcovering primer.
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Old 12-27-2016, 04:15 AM   #7
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[QUOTE=PRC;1335082]One primer that comes to mind is zinsser shieldz. It should seal well because it's a wallcovering primer.[/QUOTE]

but not a very good one IMO, I have had many failures with this product, especially @ stripping time, Gardz has never been a problem
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Old 12-27-2016, 07:14 AM   #8
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[quote=chrisn;1335122]
Quote:
Originally Posted by PRC View Post
One primer that comes to mind is zinsser shieldz. It should seal well because it's a wallcovering primer.[/QUOTE]

but not a very good one IMO, I have had many failures with this product, especially @ stripping time, Gardz has never been a problem
Although I never had a problem with it I agree it is not as good as Gardz. In this case though it seemed to fit the criteria Futtyos laid out.
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Old 12-27-2016, 08:07 AM   #9
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What sheen is the finish coat going to be? This will drive your primer choices. For example, I recently used Zinsser Drywall Primer with great results as a solid white sandable waterbase primer over a level five finished concrete and drywall substrate. The primer was opaque white with excellent adhesion. But the Zinsser Drywall Primer TDS recommended 123 for better finish coat sheen hold out.

And as far as using a primer for checking joint compound top coat imperfections, I though it was the sheen of the primer that aids in that. Not necessarily requiring an opaque white. Therefore, a coat of Gardz followed by spot patching and priming, followed by two coats of finish seems adequate for a finished product.

BTW, two coats of Regal Pearl over the Zinsser Dry Wall Primer seemed to allow the intended sheen. One coat over it wouldn't have.
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Old 12-27-2016, 08:27 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by CApainter View Post
What sheen is the finish coat going to be? This will drive your primer choices. For example, I recently used Zinsser Drywall Primer with great results as a solid white sandable waterbase primer over a level five finished concrete and drywall substrate. The primer was opaque white with excellent adhesion. But the Zinsser Drywall Primer TDS recommended 123 for better finish coat sheen hold out.

And as far as using a primer for checking joint compound top coat imperfections, I though it was the sheen of the primer that aids in that. Not necessarily requiring an opaque white. Therefore, a coat of Gardz followed by spot patching and priming, followed by two coats of finish seems adequate for a finished product.

BTW, two coats of Regal Pearl over the Zinsser Dry Wall Primer seemed to allow the intended sheen. One coat over it wouldn't have.
what? no pva primer?
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Old 12-27-2016, 11:41 AM   #11
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what? no pva primer?
Before I discovered Zinsser Drywall Primer, I was looking for a drywall specific primer, like PVA, so as to follow a best painting practice in terms of bare drywall treatment. I wasn't comfortable using some adlibbed concoction just because some self taught rank and file painter said it covered good.

It seems Glidden PVA is a pretty popular primer, but I was never comfortable using Glidden products. KM used to sell a good quality PVA, albeit not opaque, but I haven't used them in so long.

So, I stumbled upon Zinsser Drywall primer and am "sharing" my experience with the group. End of story.
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Old 12-27-2016, 01:09 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CApainter View Post
Before I discovered Zinsser Drywall Primer, I was looking for a drywall specific primer, like PVA, so as to follow a best painting practice in terms of bare drywall treatment. I wasn't comfortable using some adlibbed concoction just because some self taught rank and file painter said it covered good.

It seems Glidden PVA is a pretty popular primer, but I was never comfortable using Glidden products. KM used to sell a good quality PVA, albeit not opaque, but I haven't used them in so long.

So, I stumbled upon Zinsser Drywall primer and am "sharing" my experience with the group. End of story.
dude it was a joke. Zinssers drywall primer is probably their second best product.
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Old 12-27-2016, 02:05 PM   #13
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dude it was a joke. Zinssers drywall primer is probably their second best product.
Sorry. I didn't mean to come off so terse.

What is their best product? BIN or GARDZ?
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Old 12-28-2016, 11:57 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PNW Painter View Post
I'm curious, but are you typically finding that you're having to patch or re-skim a lot of mistakes? If not you could probably apply Gardz and a coat of paint before looking for imperfections. At this point you could fix anything, apply a spot coat of Gardz and paint before proceeding to your final coat of paint.

Also, I'm curious why you aren't spraying out the trim packs?


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The GC I work for has been remodeling condos in the 2 buildings he works in for about 17 years and has gotten used to doing things a certain way. As far as skim coating, I agree with him in this regards: a wall or ceiling cannot usually be skim coated without their being little imperfections that cannot be seen while skim coating, but that jump out at the eye after a coat of white paint or primer is put on. I always plan on finishing my own skim coat jobs after priming So I can see things that cannot be seen prior to priming and apparently, the GC I am working for found the same thing to be true for him.

As far as spraying, I have done precious little spraying over the years. It probably would be a good thing to start doing. I will have to consider it.

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