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Old 05-16-2016, 12:21 AM   #1
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Angry Tape Peel - What is up with 2050 these days...

We've been having issues with our masking pulling up paint around our trim. It has been incredibly difficult to pinpoint where the problem stems from. Here is our process.
  1. Prime Walls/ceilings (backrolled), wait 24 hours
  2. Spray Walls - Topcoat, wait 24 hours
  3. Mask/Spray Ceilings
  4. Walk away and come back after cabs/tile/hardwood/millwork installed
  5. Caulk everything, Paint drywall/trim edges, mask floors
  6. Next day finish mask, fill nail holes, sand, vacuum, spray first coat on trim, wait an hour or so depending on temp and spray second coat
  7. Next day pull masking, hang doors

We have been using 3M 2050 and recently switched to Frogtape (green) with some success limiting our tape pulling paint/primer off the wall. The drywallers did not seal the gypsum board prior to applying their hand texture, so there are areas where the tape pulled the damned texture off down to the paper. It tends to be worst around window sills and right along our caulk line on the baseboard/door casings. I'll try to get a picture up for clarification...

We have used Sherwin Williams Contractors 152 low-sheen and Miller Builders Primer and will be demoing a higher quality primer to see if this helps. We were having the same issue with another builder that did not want primer (obviously problematic)

Does anyone have any ideas? Solutions? Similar situations?? I feel like we are the only ones in the world with this issue and it is driving me crazy, cause we never had this issue until the past 6 months or so. Our process has not changed.

Thank you for your help!

Last edited by csbeepee; 05-16-2016 at 12:30 AM..
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Old 05-16-2016, 02:10 AM   #2
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Default Gardz instead of primer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by csbeepee View Post
We've been having issues with our masking pulling up paint around our trim. It has been incredibly difficult to pinpoint where the problem stems from. Here is our process.
  1. Prime Walls/ceilings (backrolled), wait 24 hours
  2. Spray Walls - Topcoat, wait 24 hours
  3. Mask/Spray Ceilings
  4. Walk away and come back after cabs/tile/hardwood/millwork installed
  5. Caulk everything, Paint drywall/trim edges, mask floors
  6. Next day finish mask, fill nail holes, sand, vacuum, spray first coat on trim, wait an hour or so depending on temp and spray second coat
  7. Next day pull masking, hang doors

We have been using 3M 2050 and recently switched to Frogtape (green) with some success limiting our tape pulling paint/primer off the wall. The drywallers did not seal the gypsum board prior to applying their hand texture, so there are areas where the tape pulled the damned texture off down to the paper. It tends to be worst around window sills and right along our caulk line on the baseboard/door casings. I'll try to get a picture up for clarification...

We have used Sherwin Williams Contractors 152 low-sheen and Miller Builders Primer and will be demoing a higher quality primer to see if this helps. We were having the same issue with another builder that did not want primer (obviously problematic)

Does anyone have any ideas? Solutions? Similar situations?? I feel like we are the only ones in the world with this issue and it is driving me crazy, cause we never had this issue until the past 6 months or so. Our process has not changed.

Thank you for your help!
csbeepee, surely you have come across posts mentioning Gardz by Zinsser here at Paint Talk? Unlike primers, Gardz soaks into and becomes part of new drywall (sanding dust and all), hardening the surface as well. Check out this link regarding tape testing and Gardz as a new drywall sealer:

http://www.jackpauhl.com/introducing-gardz-by-zinsser/

I personally don't see how any primer could be more effective at providing a better surface for applying paint than Gardz when it is used as directed. The only downside with Gardz is that it dries clear, so if you are trying to one coat over a white primer, Gardz won't add any color under the top coat. Also, I am not familiar with how Gardz performs under textured surfaces, but one of its main recommendations is for sealing damaged drywall prior to spackling/repairing, so I would imagine that it would provide a sound base for texture to hold on to.

I will be interested to see if anyone here mentions a better product to help solve your problem. Good luck.

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Old 05-16-2016, 09:33 AM   #3
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I guess my confusion comes from the fact that most contractors in the area in New Construction have used and continue to use 3M 2050 for everything. I'm not sure why we would be the only ones having the issue. I'm looking into the 2080 orange label as an option.
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Old 05-16-2016, 10:14 AM   #4
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dump the 2050 and look into ipg tape products. pg5 specifically....sw has it in the back and hd is starting to carry it (first shipment of 2 cases by my house last week...guess where those 2 cases are...lol, in my van!)
dunno if it'll resolve your issue (if it's a tape issue, it should help), but imo, it's a wayyy better product than the 3m.3m's too sticky for my liking . i like the 2080 for some things (i ran out of the blue pg tape....still looking for more if anybody knows where to find it? i haven't looked very hard yet though..) but i dunno if you're gonna get enough bite out of it on NC textured surfaces ..i'd give it a go though as it definitely won't pull...just hope it sticks once you put some weight on it (that's what i love about the pg blue....just enough bite, no pull offs)

we finally switched last year and i've never looked back.
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Old 05-16-2016, 10:51 PM   #5
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Prime with oil

Cover stain oil works good
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Old 05-18-2016, 11:27 PM   #6
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dump the 2050 and look into ipg tape products. pg5 specifically....sw has it in the back
Thanks. I'll have to look into that and see about a demo.
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Old 05-19-2016, 02:32 AM   #7
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@csbeepee The issues with your tape pulling paint is because your primer isn't adhering to the drywall. At a certain point even the lowest tack tapes available won't help if the adhesion is really poor.

Is there a lot of drywall dust on the walls before they're being primed? I'm not familiar with Miller Builders Primer, but if it's really thick primer it probably doesn't soak into the drywall very much and dust can create adhesion issues with these types of primers.

It's possible that your primer had a formulation change if you started having issues 6 months ago.


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Old 05-19-2016, 08:32 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PNW Painter View Post
@csbeepee The issues with your tape pulling paint is because your primer isn't adhering to the drywall. At a certain point even the lowest tack tapes available won't help if the adhesion is really poor.

Is there a lot of drywall dust on the walls before they're being primed? I'm not familiar with Miller Builders Primer, but if it's really thick primer it probably doesn't soak into the drywall very much and dust can create adhesion issues with these types of primers.

It's possible that your primer had a formulation change if you started having issues 6 months ago.


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Old 05-20-2016, 12:23 AM   #9
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Quote:
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@csbeepee

Is there a lot of drywall dust on the walls before they're being primed? I'm not familiar with Miller Builders Primer, but if it's really thick primer it probably doesn't soak into the drywall very much and dust can create adhesion issues with these types of primers.
The builders primer is a "high-build" primer that was turned on to me recently. I figured it was an adhesion issue since it pulled both the paint AND primer off. In the areas it pulled down to the drywall paper, the drywaller's non-use of pva before texturing would be the culprit here.

We open up the windows and blow out the house with a blower. It makes quick work of the dust, but man is it a dirty job! This particular house wasn't sanded properly by the drywaller initially so they were called in to sand just prior to us painting. I'll have to double check the sequence of events to make sure we covered our bases, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out that the thick primer + dust caused the issue.

What are the quickest (and nicest) ways you have remedied drywall dust? Clear sealers??
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Old 05-20-2016, 01:49 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csbeepee View Post
the builders primer is a "high-build" primer that was turned on to me recently. I figured it was an adhesion issue since it pulled both the paint and primer off. In the areas it pulled down to the drywall paper, the drywaller's non-use of pva before texturing would be the culprit here.

We open up the windows and blow out the house with a blower. It makes quick work of the dust, but man is it a dirty job! This particular house wasn't sanded properly by the drywaller initially so they were called in to sand just prior to us painting. I'll have to double check the sequence of events to make sure we covered our bases, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out that the thick primer + dust caused the issue.

What are the quickest (and nicest) ways you have remedied drywall dust? Clear sealers??
Gardz!!!

I painted a friend's bedroom last year. He had all new drywall on the walls and a skim coated ceiling over texture. I am not sure that I even dusted it off with a broom before I put 2 coats of Gardz on it. Two coats of ceiling paint went on like butter and covered very nicely. Two coats of eggshell went on perfectly and with a uniform sheen. I don't believe that I saw any pock marks in the mudded areas. I did another job after the same drywaller/taper, but I vacuumed the surface that time and did get pock marks that I had to fill in.

Gardz is thin and will soak right through any dust and make it a permanent part of the wall. I imagine that it soaks into the paper on the drywall as well. I will have to test this out.

Two coats of Gardz over new drywall and the paint will just lay right on top along with all the water in it, waiting to slowly evaporate and giving you a chance to roll out an even coat without having roller lines becoming cemented into the wall because the water in the paint got sucked up before you could roll out the lines.

After you experience painting over 2 coats of Gardz on new drywall you will probably always want the same blissful experience on all your painting jobs. I know I do!

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Old 05-20-2016, 01:40 PM   #11
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Could be pulling up the material when the film dries over the edges of the tape. Sometimes leaving tape on too long can have some negative results.
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Old 05-26-2016, 12:04 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by propainterJ View Post
Prime with oil

Cover stain oil works good
You want me to spray a 2200 sq ft interior wall out with oil? You want me to die?? I never did anything to you to deserve this! LOL seriously though, the thought of having oil-based paint covering me from head to toe sounds like a nightmare, not to mention the burning eyes that would accompany the task..
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Old 05-26-2016, 09:17 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csbeepee View Post
You want me to spray a 2200 sq ft interior wall out with oil? You want me to die?? I never did anything to you to deserve this! LOL seriously though, the thought of having oil-based paint covering me from head to toe sounds like a nightmare, not to mention the burning eyes that would accompany the task..
Take a peak at some of the pics in this thread:
Now that's a lot of paint
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Old 05-26-2016, 10:50 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csbeepee View Post
You want me to spray a 2200 sq ft interior wall out with oil? You want me to die?? I never did anything to you to deserve this! LOL seriously though, the thought of having oil-based paint covering me from head to toe sounds like a nightmare, not to mention the burning eyes that would accompany the task..
Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz

futtyos

P.S. Did I mention trying Gardz?
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Old 07-23-2016, 12:00 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildbill7145 View Post
Take a peak at some of the pics in this thread:
Now that's a lot of paint
Makes my head hurt just looking at the pictures!
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Old 07-23-2016, 12:02 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by futtyos View Post
Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz Gardz

futtyos

P.S. Did I mention trying Gardz?
OK I HEAR YOU! Next interior we are priming with Gardz. I want to know how this works.. Thanks Futtyos!
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