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Old 02-09-2017, 11:07 AM   #1
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Default water-based poly over oil stain

I do a lot of remodel painting. Often includes matching and staining some trim, windows, maybe a couple doors. I have always used oil poly for on-site work but would like to start trying water based poly(probably Ultra Max). from everyone's experience, will I be safe going over a oil stain with modified poly after 24 hrs? I'm trying to compress my time as much as possible. Any more than 24hrs. is often not practical.
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Old 02-09-2017, 11:59 AM   #2
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I love Ultra Max, it does have a learning curve. But, since you are doing remodels wouldn't you want to use the same type of poly (oil or water based) that is already on the wood. If not the new poly would look different.

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Old 02-09-2017, 04:26 PM   #3
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I have used water based poly's over oil based stains with no issues. Just be sure stain is dry and given time to cure a bit. Don't spray over stain that is built up too much (such as stain that didn't get a good wiping down 15-20 minutes after application) thereby causing it to dry much more slowly than usual and it still feels a bit sticky or gummy to the touch after a"recommended" dry time.

I really like using Target Coating's Emtech 8000 Pre catalyzed Waterborne Conversion Varnish for a top coat - put it down over Old Masters solvent based stain all the time with absolutely no issues (but heed the dry time warning fior the stain given above). With all those words in it's name it may sound like it would be a complicated product and therefore difficult to use, but nothing could be further from the truth. Very forgiving, low odor, and pretty rapid dry time.
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Old 02-23-2017, 05:55 PM   #4
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Hey thanks for the reply. I appreciate it. I had a bit of a username/password debacle. It took me this long to get back on the forum. Matching the existing is simply not possible. Existing stuff is too old and new stuff is sprayed at the factory. You just have to try and match the sheen as best as possible. I would like to try the Target Coatings product but it may be difficult finding it. It seems like a west coast product, although I'm sure I could order it.
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Old 02-23-2017, 06:28 PM   #5
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I've always had good luck with rust oleums Varathane Polyurethane. When spraying isn't an option I can easily cut around the hinges and knob then foam roller the rest of the door. When I roll, I thin it with water slightly so it releases off the foam roller easier.
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Old 02-23-2017, 07:37 PM   #6
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Hey thanks for the reply. I appreciate it. I had a bit of a username/password debacle. It took me this long to get back on the forum. Matching the existing is simply not possible. Existing stuff is too old and new stuff is sprayed at the factory. You just have to try and match the sheen as best as possible. I would like to try the Target Coatings product but it may be difficult finding it. It seems like a west coast product, although I'm sure I could order it.
My supplier has to order it in for me which I am glad to let them do. However, you can order direct. I think if you give it a try, you will like it. Here' is a link:

https://www.targetcoatings.com/produ...rsion-varnish/
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Old 02-23-2017, 08:44 PM   #7
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Personally, I like minwax hybrid...easy to get, easy to work with, not too $$, and super durable.
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Old 02-23-2017, 10:23 PM   #8
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No thanks to hybrids. Suffer from similar problems and they dry not that much faster. Reduced time yes, but no where near what a true waterbased would be.

Sherwin has a decent one in their wood classics line. Wood Classic - Waterbased Poly.

General Finishes also makes a decent poly.

Target is a good company with good products also.

Valspar also has their own line (Zenith) which is pretty legit stuff also.

You pay more per gallon..but you save in time and clean up/solvents. At the end of the day it evens itself out, cost wise. Anything to get you to that check time faster...is a winner in my book.
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Old 02-26-2017, 06:36 PM   #9
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I should have mentioned that ideally I need a top coat that I can both brush and spray. The cabinet company I usually follow has all the trim up, normally floors in, pre-finished cabinets in. I can take the doors and windows off to spray but the trim I need to brush. Fast dry is important. How does Target finishes brush? After talking to a friend I am now thinking General Finishes High Performance poly.
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Old 02-26-2017, 08:24 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b11ob View Post
I should have mentioned that ideally I need a top coat that I can both brush and spray. The cabinet company I usually follow has all the trim up, normally floors in, pre-finished cabinets in. I can take the doors and windows off to spray but the trim I need to brush. Fast dry is important. How does Target finishes brush? After talking to a friend I am now thinking General Finishes High Performance poly.
General Finishes works great. I've been using them for years now. Use to have to buy direct before we got a supplier out this way.

You'll like it and it ends up working pretty good. If your in hot weather like us, you'll need to buy the retarder to help out. Almost all WB stuff dries faster, irregardless of what company it is from, just part of the allure of WB coatings.
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Old 02-27-2017, 06:11 PM   #11
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Defthane from PPG has a great WB poly. One of the versions can be used on exterior doors even. Rule of thumb: go for something that says waterbased polyurethane, not the poly/acrylic. The acrylic ones arent quite as durable, (supposedly). I love the Deft waterbased polyurethane. Brushes and sprays great. I've read a couple things recently about not using waterborne poly over oil stains, but I call total BS. I've NEVER had a problem, and I've been using them for twenty years. http://www.houzz.com/photos/36744897...-and-varnishes
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Old 02-27-2017, 08:14 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodco View Post
Defthane from PPG has a great WB poly. One of the versions can be used on exterior doors even. Rule of thumb: go for something that says waterbased polyurethane, not the poly/acrylic. The acrylic ones arent quite as durable, (supposedly). I love the Deft waterbased polyurethane. Brushes and sprays great. I've read a couple things recently about not using waterborne poly over oil stains, but I call total BS. I've NEVER had a problem, and I've been using them for twenty years. http://www.houzz.com/photos/36744897...-and-varnishes
At 450 g VOC I would not expect it to have issues with oil stains either.
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Old 02-28-2017, 09:05 AM   #13
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I've used all different kinds of WB poly through the years, and havent had a single issue. In fact, I've never used a water based stain in my life. I've only recently been using defthane, but its great. Brush strokes practically dont exist, it has a good wet edge time, looks great dry, durable as hell. I'll never use anything else if possible.
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Old 03-08-2017, 07:53 PM   #14
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Well I picked up some General Finishes High Performance poly last week. A local paint store was able to order it. I have been using it for a couple days. This is the first high quality water poly I have tried and I'm guessing it performs similar to some of the others mentioned in this thread. Going over the oil stain was not an issue but then I stained on Friday and started the clear coat on Monday. I really think I could have started coating the next day. The General Finishes performed very well. It's a thin product. Three coats are a must. First coat did not raise the grain much at all on oak but a bit on pine and door edges. Sanded real nice. Brushed real easy and quick, leveled out beautifully. Tended not to drip or sag, but like all clear coats you have to keep your eyes open and re-check. Dry time was just outstanding. Three coats in a day, no problem. The doors were flush oak and I applied with mohair roller and back brushed. You could see a better finish on the doors because it could be applied heavier and leveled out almost like a spray coat. Because of the rapid dry time I could imagine problems with a six panel door and would have used extender in that case. I should mention that I was using the flat finish so Satin would have been a better test of the actual finish quality. I did not need to do any spraying because with the flush doors they could be easily done on site. Because it was so thin I think I would try there Enduro poly which is formulated specifically for spraying if I do. I plan on picking some up soon and giving it a try.
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Old 03-08-2017, 11:12 PM   #15
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Quote:
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The General Finishes performed very well. It's a thin product.

Because it was so thin I think I would try there Enduro poly which is formulated specifically for spraying if I do.
Sounds about right. GF makes some good stuff. Least I like it and a few other painters I have turned onto it, seem to like it.

Pretty much any poly they make can be sprayed, I don't think I've found one they have that can't be or isn't recommended to be sprayed.

Enduro does spray good, but just make sure you get the one that doesn't amber much. They have some that are water white, which won't affect color, but they also have some that are meant to resemble an oil varnish. Which yellows/ambers over time.
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Old 03-15-2017, 02:35 PM   #16
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I have a job coming up that I could actually use something with a little amber tint too it.
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Old 03-15-2017, 09:23 PM   #17
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Quote:
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Well I picked up some General Finishes High Performance poly last week. A local paint store was able to order it. I have been using it for a couple days. This is the first high quality water poly I have tried and I'm guessing it performs similar to some of the others mentioned in this thread. Going over the oil stain was not an issue but then I stained on Friday and started the clear coat on Monday. I really think I could have started coating the next day. The General Finishes performed very well. It's a thin product. Three coats are a must. First coat did not raise the grain much at all on oak but a bit on pine and door edges. Sanded real nice. Brushed real easy and quick, leveled out beautifully. Tended not to drip or sag, but like all clear coats you have to keep your eyes open and re-check. Dry time was just outstanding. Three coats in a day, no problem. The doors were flush oak and I applied with mohair roller and back brushed. You could see a better finish on the doors because it could be applied heavier and leveled out almost like a spray coat. Because of the rapid dry time I could imagine problems with a six panel door and would have used extender in that case. I should mention that I was using the flat finish so Satin would have been a better test of the actual finish quality. I did not need to do any spraying because with the flush doors they could be easily done on site. Because it was so thin I think I would try there Enduro poly which is formulated specifically for spraying if I do. I plan on picking some up soon and giving it a try.
I'm telling ya, we do loads of remodels. The minwax is perfect for that kind of work. It's a floor finish that goes on great, levels well and dries super fast for quick recoat. Just finished 4 maple benches and an 11 ft desktop last week...most of the remodels we get into are occupied so I can't have smelly, wet surfaces very often....ya gotta do what ya gotta do but I (personally) love that crap. To each their own I suppose...

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Old 03-19-2017, 07:45 AM   #18
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So are you talking about the Minwax oil modified poly, or do they have a particular floor finish poly? Either way I haven't tried it. I never liked Polycrylic at all, but I do like the hybrid idea. I would be interested in it if it went on a little heavier and maybe gave a little more of a oil look. There is just something about even the best water clear coats, they just don't have that satiny finish of oils.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:59 AM   #19
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I'm telling ya, we do loads of remodels. The minwax is perfect for that kind of work. It's a floor finish that goes on great, levels well and dries super fast for quick recoat. Just finished 4 maple benches and an 11 ft desktop last week...most of the remodels we get into are occupied so I can't have smelly, wet surfaces very often....ya gotta do what ya gotta do but I (personally) love that crap. To each their own I suppose...

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Old 03-21-2017, 02:50 AM   #20
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I love waterborne poly, and it is as durable as anything.

One of its best qualities is, it's dead clear. So it won't change the color of wood. It's great over stain for that reason.

Which is great, UNLESS you've got an old amber floor finish you're trying to match. I would have to use oil-based for that . . .

BUT a lot of times you can use amber shellac to do the match - which dries even faster than the waterborne (minutes). Do a little sample in a closet to make sure, but many times this has bailed me out. Sometimes, for a small spot, all you need is alcohol on the rag, and you can re-activate old shellac.

I did my entire house. Gave it a thorough sand, but not a full strip to bare. Then, coated the whole floor with amber shellac to blend the color, then 2-3 coats of waterbased. I could get 3 coats on in a day easy. I don't do floors very often, so I'm not wicked fast at them either, but with 9" applicator, you can pretty much barely keep a wet edge on the stuff - so move your ass!

Likewise for blonde / natural finishes, you can use dead clear shellac as a sanding sealer and/or first coat, and knock them out very fast.

Make sure it's wax-free, and don't try to push more than 3 coats without allowing to dry overnight, IMO, because you start to risk curing issues. But overall I'm a huge fanboy of shellac on floors - on handrails - on everything!
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