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Old 10-06-2019, 04:25 PM   #1
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Default Essential Spray Tips for current industry changes?

Looking into getting an apollo 5 stage system & it got me wondering...

With all the increasing VOC limits & industry product changes - which tips do u consider essential (beyond 1.5 & 1.3) to be sure any finish that may come up can be handled?
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Old 10-06-2019, 07:24 PM   #2
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I have a capspray 115 which is the 6 stage. Still mostly use the #3 and #4 (1.3mm and 1.8mm).

I have the #5 as well but doesn't get used since acrylics sprayed with it dont lay down in my experience, it's like an orange peel and the blobs stick to themselves vs flow out.

Products like Coronado rust scat, breakthrough, cabinet coat, and the plethera of waterborne lacquers spray fine with the 1.3mm if I adjust their viscosity a bit.

I'm still not sold on hvlp for these coatings for more than small projects. They dont IMHO substantially save from over spray in situations like door openings. For baseboard I could see a reduced maybe but then it's too slow. Dry spray, lack of speed, and bulk may them niche tools after owning one.

Thinning typical trim products alittle and going with a fine finish tip like a 308 gives a better finish for architectural waterbornes for me.

For solvents, clears, shellac etc I can see the the hvlps being useful for single rooms or small tasks.

Others may disagree.
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Old 10-07-2019, 11:33 PM   #3
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The problem is the Apollo is a night and day difference from a Capspray system, sorry to say. There is a facebook page https://www.facebook.com/groups/prorefinisherschatroom/
This is the ideal place to learn about hvlp, aaa, and other as people post pictures and videos. Lots of experts and industry reps to assist as well. Here, again sorry to say, are just people guessing at what you need. Most of the people there are spraying the new Italian 1k and 2k products, I doubt anyone here has heard of them. Check them out.
Are you back in North County? Haven't heard from you in a while. I painted the rest of our mutual clients home, you should check out the pics on my page.
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Old 10-07-2019, 11:59 PM   #4
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We always had CS HVLPs usually on pressure pot carts for larger jobs. If I were getting into the business today I would probably look at AAA.
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Old 10-08-2019, 02:09 PM   #5
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Most of the people there are spraying the new Italian 1k and 2k products, I doubt anyone here has heard of them.
Been utilizing Euro 2K PU finishes since the mid-2000ís, not all that new to the US market. Thereís no doubt that Italyís IVM Groupís Milesi and Ilva resin systems are far superior to those of their North American competitors in terms of durability and chemical resistance. I find many clients donít like the build and plasticity associated with 2K WB European finishes. The plastic-encapsulated wood-look just isnít always the preferred-look for many North American design trends. Thereís also local EPA regulations and OSHA considerations when spraying anything outside of a regulated booth, particularly when site finishing, being limited to finishes containing -zero- HAPS, at least in my county.

I find many designers and HOs wanting formaldehyde/isocyanate-free finishes, often requesting safety data sheets. Although some of the Euro isocyanate PUs I use are GreenGuard certified, emitting low levels of isocyanates, the clients just donít want them in their homes. Iím suspecting that youíll probably be seeing some tighter restrictions at some point, regulating the downstream use of isocyanates, similar to the
EUís Annex XV restriction proposition.

The term ďbest finishĒ shouldnít be soley gauged on durability, ease of application, and quick turnaround. I find that many clients perceive sprayed Italian 2K PU finishes as being ďfar inferiorĒ to a skillfully hand-applied finish. I personally prefer the look and feel of a hand finishing over the sprayed look. Itís only my preference, both requiring a different skill set and product knowledge.
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Old 10-08-2019, 04:28 PM   #6
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Mike,

I'm not sure I follow. They use a similarly sized air hose. The Apollo probably uses a readily available turbine motor as well. Yes, the upper tier Apollo is variable speed/pressure but is technically only a 5 stage last time I checked. The gun functions similarly to the Titan elite gun in terms of controls (independent fan, fluid and air).

I would no doubt say the fit and finish on the Apollo is better. The gun is probably better?

But the full speed performance and overall technology is the same in my opinion.

Moving to a spray ready, spray only finish may work but would remove the option of brushing and rolling boxes for the jobs that wouldn't allow for site spraying.






Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeCalifornia View Post
The problem is the Apollo is a night and day difference from a Capspray system, sorry to say. There is a facebook page https://www.facebook.com/groups/prorefinisherschatroom/
This is the ideal place to learn about hvlp, aaa, and other as people post pictures and videos. Lots of experts and industry reps to assist as well. Here, again sorry to say, are just people guessing at what you need. Most of the people there are spraying the new Italian 1k and 2k products, I doubt anyone here has heard of them. Check them out.
Are you back in North County? Haven't heard from you in a while. I painted the rest of our mutual clients home, you should check out the pics on my page.
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Old 11-11-2019, 06:11 PM   #7
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I have a capspray 115 which is the 6 stage. Still mostly use the #3 and #4 (1.3mm and 1.8mm).

I have the #5 as well but doesn't get used since acrylics sprayed with it dont lay down in my experience, it's like an orange peel and the blobs stick to themselves vs flow out.

Products like Coronado rust scat, breakthrough, cabinet coat, and the plethera of waterborne lacquers spray fine with the 1.3mm if I adjust their viscosity a bit.

I'm still not sold on hvlp for these coatings for more than small projects. They dont IMHO substantially save from over spray in situations like door openings. For baseboard I could see a reduced maybe but then it's too slow. Dry spray, lack of speed, and bulk may them niche tools after owning one.

Thinning typical trim products alittle and going with a fine finish tip like a 308 gives a better finish for architectural waterbornes for me.

For solvents, clears, shellac etc I can see the the hvlps being useful for single rooms or small tasks.

Others may disagree.


I had the capspray 115 on my wish list for years but after tryin the apollo system out I fell head over heels!

Since Iím not doing production painting its mainly to be used for cabinet jobs & base coating large surfaces when Iím able to spray.

Iíve always loved hand application & still fall back on it as my main method (since most finishes are decorative/detail orientated) but have gotten quite a few cabinets in the past year & find the airless graco Iíve had from the beginning to be overkill..., ready for a pretty new toy
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Old 11-11-2019, 06:12 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeCalifornia View Post
The problem is the Apollo is a night and day difference from a Capspray system, sorry to say. There is a facebook page https://www.facebook.com/groups/prorefinisherschatroom/
This is the ideal place to learn about hvlp, aaa, and other as people post pictures and videos. Lots of experts and industry reps to assist as well. Here, again sorry to say, are just people guessing at what you need. Most of the people there are spraying the new Italian 1k and 2k products, I doubt anyone here has heard of them. Check them out.
Are you back in North County? Haven't heard from you in a while. I painted the rest of our mutual clients home, you should check out the pics on my page.


Ahh hi Mike! Yep, back in north county chuggin away

Thank you for the link- I joined up. Theyíre an awesome group of painters!!
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Old 11-11-2019, 06:38 PM   #9
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I always had Capspray systems on pressure pot carts, but if I were in the market for a finish sprayer today, I'd look real hard at AAA. I never owned one, but they look pretty appealing to me.
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Old 11-12-2019, 08:21 AM   #10
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I always had Capspray systems on pressure pot carts, but if I were in the market for a finish sprayer today, I'd look real hard at AAA. I never owned one, but they look pretty appealing to me.
Initially using straight-up non-conversion air guns, shooting nothing but solvent borne lacquers with a Binks No 7 which was the shop workhorse for finishers back in the day as well as the other Binks air guns I’d regularly use, having transitioned to HVLP for the first time, I had purchased two 3 stage Titan cart units when they first came out. The had miniature tankless air compressors like the portable 12 volt tire compressors that you’d keep in your car, the compressors not fit to inflate so much as a tire let alone pressurize the included paint pots. The things were a heap of junk, not fit to be boat anchors. The compressors and guns were so flawed that Titan offered anyone who purchased them a free upgrade for their newer guns, having reconfigured the compressor setup incorporating air storage tanks within the 1st year after first being introduced. I had dropped $4,800 on the two units, tossing them in a dumpster in sheer frustration after only a couple of uses, switching to conversion guns.

I’ve since had what seems like infinitely disappointing experiences with the turbine setups and associated guns, the latest being a Fuji Q5 with what seems to be the never ending leaking gravity feed gun, having changed out the plastic cup several times and still having the darn thing leak cause the cap won’t seat properly. Had I not been retiring from the business this week I’d switch to a AAA setup. I had purchased a Graco Finish Pro II 595 AAA this past Feb. only it never made it out of the box when opting for an early retirement shortly after purchasing it. I was looking forward to trying it out after hearing others on PT raving about how far superior they are to HVLP turbines.

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Old 11-12-2019, 10:11 AM   #11
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Initially using straight-up non-conversion air guns, shooting nothing but solvent borne lacquers with a Binks No 7 which was the shop workhorse for finishers back in the day as well as the other Binks air guns Iíd regularly use, having transitioned to HVLP for the first time, I had purchased two 3 stage Titan cart units when they first came out. The had miniature tankless air compressors like the portable 12 volt tire compressors that youíd keep in your car, the compressors not fit to inflate so much as a tire let alone pressurize the included paint pots. The things were a heap of junk, not fit to be boat anchors. The compressors and guns were so flawed that Titan offered anyone who purchased them a free upgrade for their newer guns, having reconfigured the compressor setup incorporating air storage tanks within the 1st year after first being introduced.
Most of my stuff was Wagner Capspray, made before Wagner acquired Titan (around 2000). The square box stuff. I had three of those, the oldest being a model purchased in the early 80's. And they all still were running when I retired a few years ago. Although I did replace the motors in all 3. One unit I replaced the motor twice. I had one of the Titan models, and wasn't made near as well. The Wagner carts and guns worked OK, but the compressor always did seem like it would be nice to have just a little more pressure...but it was adequate. I never had trouble with the Wagner guns. I never tried the Titan cart or gun, so I really can't compare. But, as previously stated, the Capspray turbine under the Wagner name , was superior to the Titan equivalent.
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Old 11-12-2019, 10:12 AM   #12
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Quote:
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Initially using straight-up non-conversion air guns, shooting nothing but solvent borne lacquers with a Binks No 7 which was the shop workhorse for finishers back in the day as well as the other Binks air guns Iíd regularly use, having transitioned to HVLP for the first time, I had purchased two 3 stage Titan cart units when they first came out. The had miniature tankless air compressors like the portable 12 volt tire compressors that youíd keep in your car, the compressors not fit to inflate so much as a tire let alone pressurize the included paint pots. The things were a heap of junk, not fit to be boat anchors. The compressors and guns were so flawed that Titan offered anyone who purchased them a free upgrade for their newer guns, having reconfigured the compressor setup incorporating air storage tanks within the 1st year after first being introduced.
Most of my stuff was Wagner Capspray, made before Wagner acquired Titan (around 2000). The square box stuff. I had three of those, the oldest being a model purchased in the early 80's. And they all still were running when I retired a few years ago. Although I did replace the motors in all 3 (after many hours). One unit I replaced the motor twice. I had one of the Titan models, and wasn't made near as well. The Wagner carts and guns worked OK, but the compressor always did seem like it would be nice to have just a little more pressure...but it was adequate. I never had trouble with the Wagner guns. I never tried the Titan cart or gun, so I really can't compare. But, as previously stated, the Capspray turbine under the Wagner name , was superior to the Titan equivalent.
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Old 11-12-2019, 10:48 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Lightningboy65 View Post
Most of my stuff was Wagner Capspray, made before Wagner acquired Titan (around 2000). The square box stuff. I had three of those, the oldest being a model purchased in the early 80's. And they all still were running when I retired a few years ago. Although I did replace the motors in all 3 (after many hours). One unit I replaced the motor twice. I had one of the Titan models, and wasn't made near as well. The Wagner carts and guns worked OK, but the compressor always did seem like it would be nice to have just a little more pressure...but it was adequate. I never had trouble with the Wagner guns. I never tried the Titan cart or gun, so I really can't compare. But, as previously stated, the Capspray turbine under the Wagner name , was superior to the Titan equivalent.
The units I had were pre-2000, probably early to mid 90ís and the model was short lived due to the flaws. Before tossing them I removed what were the cube shaped turbines from the carts just using the turbines and guns with the supplied cups, nixing the pressurized setup. The guns had screw-on plastic fluid needle tips that after a few uses would both wear from minor use and distort from the solvents and wouldnít seat, dripping from the caps. It was frustrating considering the investment. I had one of the earlier Capsray units from the early to mid-80ís which was a pretty odd looking bird, producing equally odd looking finishes. The turbine unit was enclosed within a large metal housing with wheels and a handle. I only used it a couple of times as well before getting rid of it. The transition from air guns was tough, the HVLPís falling short of what I was accustomed to.
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:00 AM   #14
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The units I had were pre-2000, probably early to mid 90ís and the model was short lived due to the flaws. Before tossing them I removed what were the cube shaped turbines from the carts just using the turbines and guns with the supplied cups, nixing the pressurized setup. The guns had screw-on plastic fluid needle tips that after a few uses would both wear from minor use and distort from the solvents and wouldnít seat, dripping from the caps. It was frustrating considering the investment. I had one of the earlier Capsray units from the early to mid-80ís which was a pretty odd looking bird, producing equally odd looking finishes. The turbine unit was enclosed within a large metal housing with wheels and a handle. I only used it a couple of times as well before getting rid of it. The transition from air guns was tough, the HVLPís falling short of what I was accustomed to.
That Titan stuff pre Wagner never had a good reputation. I guess it got better when Wagner bought it, but I think they meet in the middle somewhere between the old wagner and Titan.

I never played around with conventional air, but I've heard similar complaints from some fellows that were old school conventional guys. I can only imagine the clouds of overspray! I guess I would compare it to the really old formula Satin Impervo....If you ever used it, nothing will ever compare. If you haven't, you really have nothing to compare it to.
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:12 AM   #15
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That Titan stuff pre Wagner never had a good reputation. I guess it got better when Wagner bought it, but I think they meet in the middle somewhere between the old wagner and Titan.

I never played around with conventional air, but I've heard similar complaints from some fellows that were old school conventional guys. I can only imagine the clouds of overspray! I guess I would compare it to the really old formula Satin Impervo....If you ever used it, nothing will ever compare. If you haven't, you really have nothing to compare it to.
I started my career using Satin Impervo, and although itís not what it was, Iím ending career with Satin Impervo, always being my go-to trim paint. Iíve only used WB once while in business...the old Aquaglo!
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:22 AM   #16
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I started my career using Satin Impervo, and although itís not what it was, Iím ending career with Satin Impervo, always being my go-to trim paint. Iíve only used WB once while in business...the old Aquaglo!
It was well into the 2000's until I finally relented and agreed to use WB on trim, if requested. There was just too much pressure from environmental warrior customers. SI will remain my go to until the day I die!!!

3 more days... I hope you enjoy it as much as I have.
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Old 11-12-2019, 12:04 PM   #17
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I never played around with conventional air, but I've heard similar complaints from some fellows that were old school conventional guys. I can only imagine the clouds of overspray! .
Speaking of conventional air, I pulled up this old photo of my first project in business for myself back in the 80ís using conventional air, not wearing a respirator, being young and dumb, thinking I was invincible at the time.. so I thought...
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Old 11-12-2019, 05:39 PM   #18
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Speaking of conventional air, I pulled up this old photo of my first project in business for myself back in the 80ís using conventional air, not wearing a respirator, being young and dumb, thinking I was invincible at the time.. so I thought...
This is going to be a lonely forum without you. Back in the day PT was flowing with traffic. Most have gone to FB groups. I see a lot of them there.
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Old 11-12-2019, 07:08 PM   #19
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This is going to be a lonely forum without you. Back in the day PT was flowing with traffic. Most have gone to FB groups. I see a lot of them there.
Thanks Mr. Smith. I always enjoy our communications here @ PT, and I look forward to further contributing here at PT along with the other retirees and semi-retired members. Iíve learned a lot while being on this forum thanks to members such as yourself.
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Old 11-12-2019, 07:33 PM   #20
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Are there any specific brands or lines of coating thatís youíve been using or expect to use?

One of the biggest challenges Iíve had with waterborne coatings is that the viscosity range is so big. Some coatings may be next to impossible to spray with a turbine driven HVLP because they are so thick. Thinking and hearing the coatings can help, but there is a limit to how much that can help.

Iíve got airless, compressor driven HVLP and AAA set ups. They all have pros and cons, but for the vast majority of clear and pigmented waterborne coatings an AAA works very well. Youíve got the power of an airless, but with the addition of the air you can really dial in your atomization. There is a learning curve, but once youíve figure it out for a certain product the results are amazing.


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