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Old 07-09-2009, 03:28 AM   #1
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I think Nathan could do a booming trade by adding a "Teach Me To Paint Talk' forum to the Building Network.

I know this has done the rounds before and debated to death, but there are a lot of people joining here who are plainly not painters, but inexperienced people setting up as painters, looking to pick the brains of a pro to get them out of a situation they've got themselves into.

Wouldn't it be better to have a standard response, similar to the 'DIY' one, telling them that they need to get proper training before they become painters? Even a warning about how much damage can be done to property by unskilled workers?

Oh, not forgetting the lock.
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Old 07-09-2009, 02:16 PM   #2
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but there are a lot of people joining here who are plainly not painters,

This is a significant issue for me.

When I first joined this forum I really felt eager to participate and share my knowledge.

Once I started realizing how many people on this site are either brand new painters who haven't even ever worked for an established company and they basically want experienced painters to teach them everything that took us decades and LOTS of expense and dedication, or they are homeowners/DIYers/house buyers trying to fix up their property and flip it, I got soured on sharing my knowledge.

My goal of participating on this forum, was to share my knowledge with other painters who would have an equal amount to teach me in return.

I really don't know what our incentive is to teach the whole world how to paint. This is something we invested a lifetime in, and we are just giving away all of the crucial information and techniques to people who would otherwise have to pay us to come paint their property.

I have really struggled with this, because by nature I am someone who loves to share information and help people.

However, I am not inclined to cheerfully invite someone in, offer them tea while I am polishing the axe for them, then hand the axe to them so they can chop off my own arms.

I highly respect the knowledge of all of the core regulars of this forum.

Even the members of this forum who I have vehemently disagreed with on select issues, I can tell have far more knowledge/experience than me in many areas of painting.

The bottom line is some of us have started out working for legitimate painting companies, and had sound training and experience before we ever dared to say that we could step out on our own and oversee a paintjob ourselves.

I never even dared to take a side job until I had worked for an established painting company for 4 years, even then I started out with small jobs like a deck or a few rooms etc.

I do think this is an issue and I would like to figure out a way to differentiate between those who are at the very least greenhorns working for a legitimate painting company, and people who come on here surreptitiously trying to squeeze information out of us to hep them struggle through some ridiculous problem they are having.

I have more I want to say on this later, but I am late now as I type this.

Carry on.
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Old 07-09-2009, 03:26 PM   #3
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The peoblem is that Paint Talk is becoming an online knowledge base for the trade (as is all of the other trades the network covers). If there's something anyone needs to know then it's likely been covered here at some point.

Answering the basic knowledge questions shouldn't really be done here. All you are doing is helping the hacks along. Sometimes it isn't obvious that a new member isn't a painter but after a few posts their colors show. When that happens, whether it be first post or a few posts later, I think it would be better to halt them there rather than letting the mud-slinging contests fill up the thread.

My trade is something that I'm very protective of. It's not easy to hold back the reply that you'd really like to give when you see one of these posts (well maybe it's easier for some than others Lol!). I'll just have to make do with my little subliminal messages in my replies to them for the time being.

What people here have to remember is that the guys you are teaching how to peel a border off or paint over crappy looking marks they've made with a tool they don''t know how to use are the ones that you are competing against and are lowballing you, taking the work away from, and ruining the good name of painters in general.

This being predominantly North American forum, you are running the risk of turning the 'the land of opportunity' into the 'land of opporunists' or the 'land of the free' into the 'land of the free room painted with every $100 room'.
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Old 07-09-2009, 05:49 PM   #4
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Yeah it is a pain that so many under developed start up companys come here for advice. i have been feeling the same way lately and have just not really been posting very much useful information. I am sticking to smart ass remarks.
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Old 07-09-2009, 08:04 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by LC
I have more I want to say on this later,
You? You have more to say? No way!


Quote:
Originally Posted by LC
My goal of participating on this forum, was to share my knowledge with other painters who would have an equal amount to teach me in return.
I agree.
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Old 07-09-2009, 08:35 PM   #6
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Some private threads for members with over 2000 post would work great.
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Old 07-09-2009, 08:51 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by NEPS.US View Post
Some private threads for members with over 2000 post would work great.
OK, I know I am opening myself up to the PT Firing Range. But, I don't understand why y'all get so concerned with hacks. They've been around in one form or another - in every industry - since forever. Even if there were no hacks there would be companies that perform at lower levels then others (lowballers).

The advice that the true professionals are throwing out there (the ones that have learned through experience and heartache) really doesn't do anything to help a hack or lowballer. Maybe it gets them out of a jam but if their work sucks it sucks. Hence, they are not even in the same league (market) as the professional business owner. IMO - don't waste your time or energy worrying about these chumps.
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Old 07-09-2009, 09:22 PM   #8
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OK, I know I am opening myself up to the PT Firing Range. But, I don't understand why y'all get so concerned with hacks. They've been around in one form or another - in every industry - since forever. Even if there were no hacks there would be companies that perform at lower levels then others (lowballers).

The advice that the true professionals are throwing out there (the ones that have learned through experience and heartache) really doesn't do anything to help a hack or lowballer. Maybe it gets them out of a jam but if their work sucks it sucks. Hence, they are not even in the same league (market) as the professional business owner. IMO - don't waste your time or energy worrying about these chumps.

The jury is still out on you FC. Right now I'm leaning more toward chump. Maybe if you still were around after 2000 posts some of us wouldnt mind sharing the secret to our millions with you.
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Old 07-09-2009, 09:28 PM   #9
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boy there have been people saying this since the beginning.... too many non professionals

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Old 07-09-2009, 09:36 PM   #10
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There are hacks and wannabees who turn to painting in a down economy because they think they can make ends meet until their other ship comes in. Those undeservedly suck up the crumbs we drop.

And then there are those that are less experienced and are serious in their desires and goals to become experienced and qualified painting contractors.

Before I joined the National Guild of Professional Paperhangers, I did not run into many hangers and those that I did would protect their knowledge as if it were state's secrets. I had to learn on my own - trail and error. I kept my ears open for any tips I could catch from old timers that enjoyed imparting knowledge.

I had heard about the NGPP and had a mis-conception that they were a bunch of elitist prima-donnas.

When I joined my first wallpaper internet list-serve, I was amazed at the generosity with which everyone shared their knowledge. And 95% of those hangers were NGPP members. I joined within a couple of months.

The philosophy of most NGPP members is that when skills and knowledge of the trade increase, the industry benefits. The respect for the trade rises. AND, as been proved over and over, so do the wages for all.

I have similar hopes and expectations for other trade forums. When we help the serious beginner become better, we all benefit. When the painting workforce consists of good technicians and good businessmen, there is an overall increase of respect and trust for the trade. This increase in respect and trust translates to our being able to charge what we are worth. It also makes Harry and Suzie Homeowner realize there really is a huge benefit for them to hire a pro and not attempt the job themselves. They see the VALUE of hiring a pro.

We were all clueless noobs at some point. Some went to trade school, some went to work for an established firm, and some learned at the school of hard knocks. But if it weren't for others sharing what they knew, none of us would be where we are today.

So, before you cast the newbie to the sharks, it may be wise to fully understand if he or she is deservedly shark bait, or a painting god in training.



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Old 07-09-2009, 09:44 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by NEPS.US View Post
The jury is still out on you FC. Right now I'm leaning more toward chump. Maybe if you still were around after 2000 posts some of us wouldnt mind sharing the secret to our millions with you.
Now, that is very funny and I know you are not serious. So, if I bump my gums and generate x amount of posts, I'll be professional? I wish it were that easy.
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Old 07-09-2009, 09:53 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daArch View Post
There are hacks and wannabees who turn to painting in a down economy because they think they can make ends meet until their other ship comes in. Those undeservedly suck up the crumbs we drop.

And then there are those that are less experienced and are serious in their desires and goals to become experienced and qualified painting contractors.

Before I joined the National Guild of Professional Paperhangers, I did not run into many hangers and those that I did would protect their knowledge as if it were state's secrets. I had to learn on my own - trail and error. I kept my ears open for any tips I could catch from old timers that enjoyed imparting knowledge.

I had heard about the NGPP and had a mis-conception that they were a bunch of elitist prima-donnas.

When I joined my first wallpaper internet list-serve, I was amazed at the generosity with which everyone shared their knowledge. And 95% of those hangers were NGPP members. I joined within a couple of months.

The philosophy of most NGPP members is that when skills and knowledge of the trade increase, the industry benefits. The respect for the trade rises. AND, as been proved over and over, so do the wages for all.

I have similar hopes and expectations for other trade forums. When we help the serious beginner become better, we all benefit. When the painting workforce consists of good technicians and good businessmen, there is an overall increase of respect and trust for the trade. This increase in respect and trust translates to our being able to charge what we are worth. It also makes Harry and Suzie Homeowner realize there really is a huge benefit for them to hire a pro and not attempt the job themselves. They see the VALUE of hiring a pro.

We were all clueless noobs at some point. Some went to trade school, some went to work for an established firm, and some learned at the school of hard knocks. But if it weren't for others sharing what they knew, none of us would be where we are today.

So, before you cast the newbie to the sharks, it may be wise to fully understand if he or she is deservedly shark bait, or a painting god in training.
DaArch:

You are a wise cat. Do you trip out over hacks and lowballers?
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Old 07-09-2009, 09:56 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daArch View Post
(edited)
I have similar hopes and expectations for other trade forums. When we help the serious beginner become better, we all benefit. When the painting workforce consists of good technicians and good businessmen, there is an overall increase of respect and trust for the trade. This increase in respect and trust translates to our being able to charge what we are worth. It also makes Harry and Suzie Homeowner realize there really is a huge benefit for them to hire a pro and not attempt the job themselves. They see the VALUE of hiring a pro.
Well put Bill
I read this thread this morning and have been thinking about it all day. I think you nailed it!
I think everyone gets something different out of this forum, you have to take the parts that work for you and let the rest go.

I think the internet has changed the way so many learn now. Think about it, Joe Painter googles "removes wallpaper border" and finds this place and thinks he has found the answers, without knowing, caring, or taking the time to read every post and understanding the dynamics of a forum.
I enjoy the mix of technical, business and social that is here.
I wish more "longtime lurkers" would post. I do like NEPS idea of a "basement"!
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Last edited by RCP; 07-09-2009 at 10:16 PM..
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Old 07-09-2009, 10:01 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daArch View Post
There are hacks and wannabees who turn to painting in a down economy because they think they can make ends meet until their other ship comes in. Those undeservedly suck up the crumbs we drop.

And then there are those that are less experienced and are serious in their desires and goals to become experienced and qualified painting contractors.

Before I joined the National Guild of Professional Paperhangers, I did not run into many hangers and those that I did would protect their knowledge as if it were state's secrets. I had to learn on my own - trail and error. I kept my ears open for any tips I could catch from old timers that enjoyed imparting knowledge.

I had heard about the NGPP and had a mis-conception that they were a bunch of elitist prima-donnas.

When I joined my first wallpaper internet list-serve, I was amazed at the generosity with which everyone shared their knowledge. And 95% of those hangers were NGPP members. I joined within a couple of months.

The philosophy of most NGPP members is that when skills and knowledge of the trade increase, the industry benefits. The respect for the trade rises. AND, as been proved over and over, so do the wages for all.

I have similar hopes and expectations for other trade forums. When we help the serious beginner become better, we all benefit. When the painting workforce consists of good technicians and good businessmen, there is an overall increase of respect and trust for the trade. This increase in respect and trust translates to our being able to charge what we are worth. It also makes Harry and Suzie Homeowner realize there really is a huge benefit for them to hire a pro and not attempt the job themselves. They see the VALUE of hiring a pro.

We were all clueless noobs at some point. Some went to trade school, some went to work for an established firm, and some learned at the school of hard knocks. But if it weren't for others sharing what they knew, none of us would be where we are today.

So, before you cast the newbie to the sharks, it may be wise to fully understand if he or she is deservedly shark bait, or a painting god in training.
Well put Arch ..... I just think one private section for members with a high post count would be helpful too. I've seen it done on other boards and it works pretty well. Just one ....thats all.
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Old 07-09-2009, 10:02 PM   #15
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I wish more "longtime lurkers" would post. I do like NEPS idea of a "basement"! [/quote]

I totally agree. It seems mosts threads contain 5 - 8 "day in - day out" characters. But yet there are over 50 folks lurking. Speak up, share your thoughts. The more - the better. Nobody has the silver bullet - so, bring on the insight!
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Old 07-09-2009, 10:40 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by NEPS.US View Post
Well put Arch ..... I just think one private section for members with a high post count would be helpful too. I've seen it done on other boards and it works pretty well. Just one ....thats all.
I understand the sentiment and the reasoning. But, I am having trouble marrying the idea that *** number of posts is the best way to prove qualification.

One overly qualified person may NOT be overly verbose and have only 50 total posts, albeit REALLY pertinent posts. Whereas Joe Station Wagon Bandit could post 2,000 "me too's".

There's gotta be a better way, IMO.



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Old 07-09-2009, 10:51 PM   #17
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I understand the sentiment and the reasoning. But, I am having trouble marrying the idea that *** number of posts is the best way to prove qualification.

One overly qualified person may NOT be overly verbose and have only 50 total posts, albeit REALLY pertinent posts. Whereas Joe Station Wagon Bandit could post 2,000 "me too's".

There's gotta be a better way, IMO.

Come on Arch .....Look up the members with 2000 or more posts. How many are station wagon painters ....besides yourself that is. But thats a subject for a different thread. It is likely that if someone has stuck around here long enough to post that many times thay might have a serious interest in the profession. Not just cruizing through for a month and pilingup a quick 350 posts. Post count is the only diplomatic way of doing it and all I am talking about is one lousy thread. A senior members section would probably alleviate much of the newbie bashing.
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Old 07-09-2009, 11:13 PM   #18
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Come on Arch .....Look up the members with 2000 or more posts. How many are station wagon painters ....besides yourself that is. But thats a subject for a different thread. It is likely that if someone has stuck around here long enough to post that many times thay might have a serious interest in the profession. Not just cruizing through for a month and pilingup a quick 350 posts. Post count is the only diplomatic way of doing it and all I am talking about is one lousy thread. A senior members section would probably alleviate much of the newbie bashing.
NEPS,

I am hoping the above is a turly sarcastic remark. Post count to qualify one as a professional painter? That's nuts and you know it!
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Old 07-09-2009, 11:19 PM   #19
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Let me slow down for those of you that have a little trouble reading ......... I did not state that post count will constitute who is professional.

One more time ....It would just weed out some newbies for a thread for senior members to discuss things.

Talk about taking things out of context.
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Old 07-09-2009, 11:20 PM   #20
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and I was serious FC.
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