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Old 05-14-2018, 11:21 AM   #1
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Default Benjamin Moore issues

We have been working with the Arborcoat Ultraflat on a home that once used Woodscapes. Days after it rains, there are clear water marks on all the wall surfaces. Surfaces that had plenty of drying time, especially considering how fast this product dries...also. using their older Moorglo soft gloss on the doors - its Heritage Red. The back garage door was painted 2x and looks great. The front house door was painted 4 times, and we found surfactant leaching on it this morning. I applied the 4th coat it Friday morning. It rained and was cooler on Saturday. The door was opened into the house and was done in the early morning on a nice sunny day, and we shrink wrapped the exterior frame so that bugs didnt fly into their house as the door dried. It looked great all day. This am? All kinds of cloudy...

So, my questions are these: does anyone know what's up with Benjamin Moore Arborcoat Ultra flat getting clear water marks on it, even on 2 coats, and has anyone had this surfactant leaching issue ? I'm convinced formulas are different and I think quality has gone down...

Please, I'm not looking for good guesses
If you have experienced these issues with Benjamin Moore, please let me know what you've done for solutions. I have been a residential house painter for 32 years. I've never seen so many issues with Benjamin Moore. We use their top lines and the top lines from Sherwin Williams, exclusively.
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:32 AM   #2
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For what it's worth - SOME areas DIDN'T show water marks. The left side of their garage got one coat, and was done first - it looks perfect. Some other areas have been given a single coat and look fine too. Some areas were given a 2nd coat as they were either deteriorated or very dry ( roof sections, front of the garage all got a 2nd...) I just dont get it. Using these same products in the past didn't give us these sketchy results. What changed, and what's the solution? Our rep is supposed to come out here soon. But I figured I'd check. I've got vastly more experience than he does and his ideas and answers aren't necessarily helpful sometimes...
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:56 AM   #3
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What color? How soon was second coat applied? Was the MoorGlo tinted with Gennex or Color Preview? Did you check surface temperature, dew point and relative humidity? What ares leached and what didn’t? Did the newest areas leach and the first areas done not? Leaching is an issue this time of year and the fall. Generally it will correct itself if left alone or hosed off after a full cure which is up to 30 days for acrylic. Pics?
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Old 05-14-2018, 01:59 PM   #4
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Checking on the tint for the door from a very long time supplier...assuming they used the appropriate tint...No idea on dewpoint, but the weather has been, over two weeks, everywhere from cool ( not lower than 45 or 50, even at night) and rainy ( we didn't work those days and we had later starts after the rain days) to two days of 90+ degrees last week. Oddly, the walls are not coated in those water marks in some areas, but they are in a few others. The roof section, (which was done before the sun hit it), baked afterwards for two days on the two hot days...the first coat had watermarks on it, the 2nd coat doesn't?! The face of the garage DIDN'T have any Mark's with one coat, but after a 2nd Friday morning and rain Saturday, it now has the watermarks. In 32 years, we haven't seen it like this. This is our first run with the Ultraflat, but weve used the Arborcoat solid latex since it came out and had no issues...?!? We work in western Massachusetts and northern CT, so we get funky weather throughout our exterior season. Just never had a wall surface randomly having watermarks like this and we are baffled.
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Old 05-14-2018, 02:42 PM   #5
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The door paint was Regal Select High Build soft gloss, tinted with Gennex. Heritage Red over an older, less bright formula of Heritage Red. It leached surfactant after the 4th coat. 4 coats, because it was flip-floppy and still streaky. That color covers for beans!
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Old 05-14-2018, 03:27 PM   #6
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Were the two products applied at 5.3 mils wet?
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Old 05-14-2018, 03:36 PM   #7
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Quote:
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The door paint was Regal Select High Build soft gloss, tinted with Gennex. Heritage Red over an older, less bright formula of Heritage Red. It leached surfactant after the 4th coat. 4 coats, because it was flip-floppy and still streaky. That color covers for beans!
high amount of organic pigments in a deep base high build with high humidity... asking for troubles. Don't know much about the ultra flat no one carries that here in MT because the DC in Aura doesn't stock it.
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Old 05-14-2018, 05:48 PM   #8
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Heritage Red is a clean red. Choose Aura Satin for less coats better hide. Having served the CT New England Market for 30+ years surfactant leaching is unpredictable and frustrating. It’s not your fault but becomes your responsibility. Be thankful your not spraying epoxy on a 580 foot barge in 10 degree weather with no rain in the forecast then we get three days of rain on an 8 hour old epoxy and we have the blush of the century. Want to see pics?
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Old 05-14-2018, 06:13 PM   #9
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Other than the two freak summer days, and the days it rained, it wasn't humid at all. As far as mils? I have no clue - we brushed the Arborcoat on, which I have done a million times before, and some walls had two coats. Given that I have successfully painted homes for 32 years, I'm guessing the mils were as they should be...? Same with the door. All I can say is, these issues are odd and new to me - of course if rain hits a wall as your painting it, I would expect to have watermarks. But some areas had none, and others had some, and some of THOSE had one coat, others got two...the 3nd coat fixed it for a few areas, but it showed back up on one 2nd coated area that got rained on two days later...!?!? As far as the surfactant leaching, I've seen it a few times, but not like I saw it on the front door. The back door out of the garage was done 2x, covered alright, and never leached out. The front door was the weird one, and that's the one that leached...it was done on a Friday morning, and it rained Saturday...I guess my biggest issue were the marks on the siding. The rep had no idea either...maybe we just chalk it up to a freak occurrence...? We are going to look at it in a few weeks and see how it's going. If the whole house those marks, we are going to Woodscapes. Dont know what else to do.
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Old 05-14-2018, 06:16 PM   #10
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Someone asked what color? The walls were a lightish midtone gray called Driftwood. The front door is Heritage Red. Trim is flat white.
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Old 05-14-2018, 09:09 PM   #11
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I had something similar happen about 5 years ago. I sprayed aluminum siding with Dulux Diamond flat and got a bunch of circular spots after drying. I kept touching them up until they didn't return. Some took 2-3 coats. I still have no idea what happened. The spots were on the black shutters too. The siding was perfectly clean too.
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Old 05-15-2018, 08:10 AM   #12
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Didn't mean to insinuate that you didn't know what you were doing! But the mil thickness it was applied at can tell a lot about how the paint may or may not react with atmospheric conditions.
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Old 05-15-2018, 02:53 PM   #13
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Quote:
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Heritage Red is a clean red. Choose Aura Satin for less coats better hide. Having served the CT New England Market for 30+ years surfactant leaching is unpredictable and frustrating. Itís not your fault but becomes your responsibility. Be thankful your not spraying epoxy on a 580 foot barge in 10 degree weather with no rain in the forecast then we get three days of rain on an 8 hour old epoxy and we have the blush of the century. Want to see pics?
Not to derail, but I would love to see pics...not to point & laugh, but to learn. How will you fix it? Solvent wipe? Was an IPD hardner used? Is it amine blush?

I had a similar incident on an object that was about 500' smaller, but I imagine many of the circumstances are/were similar. Hope it all turns out ok.
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Old 05-15-2018, 04:03 PM   #14
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Not to derail, but I would love to see pics...not to point & laugh, but to learn. How will you fix it? Solvent wipe? Was an IPD hardner used? Is it amine blush?

I had a similar incident on an object that was about 500' smaller, but I imagine many of the circumstances are/were similar. Hope it all turns out ok.
Powered washed @5000 psi with Joy Dish soap did the trick. Sometimes you have to wipe with MEK but I was satisfied with the wash. Recoated with epoxy with a better weather window. Iíll post pictures. Yes. Amine blush.
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Old 05-15-2018, 11:21 PM   #15
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Didn't mean to insinuate that you didn't know what you were doing! But the mil thickness it was applied at can tell a lot about how the paint may or may not react with atmospheric conditions.
It's all good, I didn't take your question that way - I have just painted for a long time and work hard to produce quality results with what are supposed to be great paints. As of the last few years or so, I have been finding Benjamin Moore's Regal Select and Aura lines to be harder to work with than I remember them being when they were newer...the superfast dry times, and the sags and drools with the darker colors in Aura, even coverage for a lot of their colors, just doesn't seem as achievable as it used to be. We recently painted with a white low lustre exterior high build, over a white that was in very decent shape, and all over some areas, out of nowhere, yellow highlights appeared. Not bleed thru, but the actual paint itself had random areas of yellow in it after it dried...no idea!!! It's just been sort of an onslaught of unexpected and unexplainable difficulties with those lines from BM. As far as the surfactant leaching for those red doors? A clean wet rag seems to have wiped it all away and it looks nice. No idea if it'll keep happening though...I guess I feel like, for such highly priced products, and for all the years I've had successes with it in the past, it shouldn't be so difficult and fussy to work with. Weird things shouldn't happen that I can't explain and haven't seen before. Maybe Benjamine Moore paints are haunted!!! Lolol
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:07 AM   #16
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It's all good, I didn't take your question that way - I have just painted for a long time and work hard to produce quality results with what are supposed to be great paints. As of the last few years or so, I have been finding Benjamin Moore's Regal Select and Aura lines to be harder to work with than I remember them being when they were newer...the superfast dry times, and the sags and drools with the darker colors in Aura, even coverage for a lot of their colors, just doesn't seem as achievable as it used to be. We recently painted with a white low lustre exterior high build, over a white that was in very decent shape, and all over some areas, out of nowhere, yellow highlights appeared. Not bleed thru, but the actual paint itself had random areas of yellow in it after it dried...no idea!!! It's just been sort of an onslaught of unexpected and unexplainable difficulties with those lines from BM. As far as the surfactant leaching for those red doors? A clean wet rag seems to have wiped it all away and it looks nice. No idea if it'll keep happening though...I guess I feel like, for such highly priced products, and for all the years I've had successes with it in the past, it shouldn't be so difficult and fussy to work with. Weird things shouldn't happen that I can't explain and haven't seen before. Maybe Benjamine Moore paints are haunted!!! Lolol
I have no doubt that there may be some cheapening of the BM product line through the years. The yellow spots may be tiny pieces of colorant in the paint that aren't supposed to be there and didn't break up when they got shookin. Personally i think that some of the paint manufacturers in the last few years have fallen victim to some pretty bad raw material consistency issues. (CHINA!) But that is just a theory.
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