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Old 08-31-2008, 11:59 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by daArch View Post
And I completely disagree with the ethics of doing something that will knowingly fail at a future time and lay the burden of 3x the cost for remediation at the feet of others. Personally, I do not need to profit off that kind of fraud.
Why would it knowingly fail? If the paper is prepped properly, it will fail no sooner than the paper normally would. We're not just throwing some behr on it and walking away.

If the homeowner HONESTLY expects to be the one who will pay the future costs, that's another situation.

If it's a making money quick with a flip scam, then the ethics of being part of the deceit is highly suspect.
I dont generally ask my customers what their plans with the home/building are, its none of my business. Buyer beware?

But we can go back and forth all day on this. May I suggest you put yourself in the position of the innocent future owner and project how you would feel about buying a gilded can of worms.
I think most people spot a wall that has painted paper . It's not hard to miss!

Many other professions have laws protecting future owners from this type of cover up. We need to self police.
I agree we need to educate and inform the customers, but should painting over wallpaper be a crime? lol.
*edited for formatting
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Old 08-31-2008, 12:29 PM   #22
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If a front door has some lifted poly at the bottom, do you demand the customer strip, restain, and reclear the door? Do you walk away if the customer only wants the damaged areas touched up and a new coat of clear? We need to compare apples to apples here, this isnt the same as if painters with this mindset are brushing lacquer on a deck. I'm offended that you would call painters who dont do things your way 'desperate'.

Mantis

Relax. I'm not calling anyone anything. Its a general observation not directed at anyone here. No offense intended. Deep breaths...



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Old 08-31-2008, 01:04 PM   #23
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Why would it knowingly fail? If the paper is prepped properly, it will fail no sooner than the paper normally would. We're not just throwing some behr on it and walking away.
A) The added weight of the subsequent coats of paint will cause the adhesive holding the paper to fail sooner.
B) you agree that paper will fail eventually. Which is easier to remove, paper with no paint or painted paper? By painting paper, is this not creating much more work for "the next guy"

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I dont generally ask my customers what their plans with the home/building are, its none of my business. Buyer beware?
Ever bought a car that had rust painted over? Every bought ANYthing used that had defects hidden or withheld? Buyer beware, you say? Hope the shoe fits YOUR foot well.


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I think most people spot a wall that has painted paper . It's not hard to miss!
Many homebuyers do not look for such details nor know the problem it will soon cause.

PLEASE do educate the customers to the FULL ramifications, and PLEASE do not offer the alternative of doing it wrong. You are the professional, as soon as you offer substandard work as an option, that option is now validated as acceptable, because YOU, the experienced and professional painter, has mentioned it.

AND, BTW, the touch up of the front door is far from apples to apples.



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Old 08-31-2008, 01:31 PM   #24
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But anyway, it's a beautiful day out, a perfect 11. Not a day to be pointing and counter-pointing on the computer.

You've made your points, I've made mine. Anything more is just gum-flapping. You ain't gonna change my ideals and I ain't gonna change your practices. At this point we are writing to the audience. With both of us hoping to validate our positions to them

Peace.

-Bill



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Old 08-31-2008, 04:48 PM   #25
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Comments in black are daArch. Comments in blue are Mantis. Comments in red are Brian.

And I completely disagree with the ethics of doing something that will knowingly fail at a future time and lay the burden of 3x the cost for remediation at the feet of others. Personally, I do not need to profit off that kind of fraud.

Why would it knowingly fail? If the paper is prepped properly, it will fail no sooner than the paper normally would. We're not just throwing some behr on it and walking away.


By your own admission it will fail. As daArch points out, it likely be sooner rather than later. And it will be more expensive to remove. If we know this, don’t we have a moral obligation to inform the customer?

If the homeowner HONESTLY expects to be the one who will pay the future costs, that's another situation.

If it's a making money quick with a flip scam, then the ethics of being part of the deceit is highly suspect.


I dont generally ask my customers what their plans with the home/building are, its none of my business. Buyer beware?


Then what is your business? How do you recommend the best products/ procedures for your customer if you don’t care what their intentions are? Buyer beware? That is the motto of scam artists and con men. Buyer be informed is the motto of an honest businessman. (I'm not accusing you of dishonesty, I'm simply pointing out the implications.)

But we can go back and forth all day on this. May I suggest you put yourself in the position of the innocent future owner and project how you would feel about buying a gilded can of worms.
I think most people spot a wall that has painted paper . It's not hard to miss!


And anyone can paint too. Don’t project your professional eye onto the average home owner. That’s simply a rationalization. I doubt most people could spot it if it were done “right”, i.e., seams floated and the wall textured. It could be hidden very well.

A mechanic might justify setting an odometer back because “anyone” could spot it. A computer store might justify selling pirated software because “anyone” could spot it.

This isn’t about painting over wallpaper. This is about informing the customer and being honest. I think there could be a legitimate debate over whether to paint or remove, but there cannot be a legitimate debate over being honest and fully informing a customer.

Brian Phillips
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Old 08-31-2008, 04:56 PM   #26
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Brian

Funny...I just got done reading your words in another thread where you referred to the difference between doing exactly what the homeowner says to do and doing what they need. There is a big difference.

This has been a common theme lately. We had some relevant discussion on customer relations in the Sikkens threads the past few days. It is too bad that moral obligation and honesty are so widely open to interpretation (and no, Mantis, I am not calling you anything here, just making a comment...although your oversensitivity and defensive argumentation could be interpreted as specious). Consumer education is one thing, while doing the bare minimum to get paid is another.



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Old 08-31-2008, 05:02 PM   #27
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but there cannot be a legitimate debate over being honest and fully informing a customer.

Brian Phillips
I don't think this is the point that is being argued.

What is being argued is the point that the HO is being informed but chooses to go a route cheaper than what it would cost to remove WP. And daArch's point is that his standards are higher and would rather not do the job and make no money. I and it seems Mantis as well are willing to venture into the CORRECT preperations but we will do what the HO wants to afford after being informed and given options, it is to the discretion of the HO how they want to spend their money. When given options to quality you give options to allow them how much money they want to spend. This is not about work ethics or being a scam. This is about being narrowed into the expectations of the HO.
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Old 08-31-2008, 05:15 PM   #28
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I don't think this is the point that is being argued.

What is being argued is the point that the HO is being informed but chooses to go a route cheaper than what it would cost to remove WP. And daArch's point is that his standards are higher and would rather not do the job and make no money. I and it seems Mantis as well are willing to venture into the CORRECT preperations but we will do what the HO wants to afford after being informed and given options, it is to the discretion of the HO how they want to spend their money. When given options to quality you give options to allow them how much money they want to spend. This is not about work ethics or being a scam. This is about being narrowed into the expectations of the HO.
I also think that what needs to be done compared to what is affordable to the HO can be a form of marketing. Where I market to the average income of $46,000 - $66,000 annualy, and perhaps you folks do work for folks that make more than $100,000 annually. I know my standard would NEED to be higher if I were catering to the UPPER end of repaints. Although I know to some extent of what EXPECTATION rich folks have, I do offer as much detail and give according to what the HO is willing to pay for (having been informed). Being that the folks I cater to do not have similar expectations as the rich folk, they do need to be educated and believe me, if I see an opportunity to make some good money due to alot of PREP work, I am not going to turn it down as long as the HO is willing to pay for it. Otherwise, the job gets done to the HO expectations as any painter would and HO should.

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Old 08-31-2008, 05:21 PM   #29
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[[email protected];38508]I also think that what needs to be done compared to what is affordable to the HO can be a form of marketing. Where I market to the average income of $36,000 - $66,000 annualy, and perhaps you folks do work for folks that make more than $100,000 annually.

Jason - I think your philosophy of demographics is a little skewed. I have plenty of middle class homeowners in my customer base who work very hard for their home and want it to be maintained properly. They are usually more appreciative than the ultra wealthy who just expect perfection. Doing a proper job is not a function of income. I dont even know any of my customers incomes and dont care to know. I doubt that you really know yours either. You are making this sound like you are selling them as much as you think they can afford, which is wacked.

...believe me, if I see an opportunity to make some good money due to alot of PREP work, I am not going to turn it down as long as the HO is willing to pay for it. Otherwise, the job gets done to the HO expectations as any painter would and HO should.

You might want to re read this and make sure you like the sound of it. It sounds like you are just looking to sell people as much as you determine they can afford. That is not how you determine the amount of prep on a job.



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Old 08-31-2008, 05:54 PM   #30
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I price jobs to do them correctly. Not to cut corners to try to save the HO as much money as possible. It's my name and reputation on the line. If the job fails do think the HO is going to remember how much money they saved. No. They will just know who did the crappy job on their failing wallpaper/paint job. If they can not afford to have the job done correctly I move on to the next perspective client.
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Old 08-31-2008, 06:07 PM   #31
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I price jobs to do them correctly. Not to cut corners to try to save the HO as much money as possible. It's my name and reputation on the line. If the job fails do think the HO is going to remember how much money they saved. No. They will just know who did the crappy job on their failing wallpaper/paint job. If they can not afford to have the job done correctly I move on to the next perspective client.
I agree 100% with this. When it fails and a friend of the ho asked who painted that, You will be smeared because the ho will not want to look bad to their friends or family. I sure don't want to leave any bad thoughts in their head, questioning if I would be the right guy for their job. I would rather lose out on a job rather than damaging my reputation. It's not just about the money you make or the relationships you have now but the relationships and the money that will be made in the future is more important. That is made on how you handle your relationships now.
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Old 08-31-2008, 06:07 PM   #32
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Time is money. Alot of prep compared to no prep, I will adjust my costs accordingly.

Wall paper stays, or it comes off, the price will vary one way or the other.

We all know for the most part what it takes to do a job "right". I think we can agree on that. How one painter deals with the HO concerning the job will vary between contractors. The HO will pay for the quality they want.

So, a HO says.. "I want you to do the job, we can't afford to take the WP down, what do you recommend?" I say, "Prime and paint over it". They say, "Sounds Good!". I land $5K and go onto the next job... Am I responsible for not taking the WP down? No. The HO is. Are my work ethics any different? No. I offered to take the WP down, they didn't want it done, it is no longer my responsibility and I won't loose sleep over it. It's that simple. It's not a scam nor is it anything to do with morals. All bases are covered. Just because daArch's standards are higher than some of us or he just wants us to look bad because of his standards, that is his deal... Not mine. It's a moot point. We all live to make a good or decent living and do well at it for what we want out of it. My customers are just as happy and giddy about our work as yours are about your work (some assumption there...). This really isn't as big of an issue as daArch has created it to be.
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Old 08-31-2008, 06:14 PM   #33
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What is being argued is the point that the HO is being informed but chooses to go a route cheaper than what it would cost to remove WP.
What if the HO's choice is totally wrong? What if you give them all of the options (that they asked for) and one of those options is the worst thing in the world they could do? I don't think it's honest to even give them that option. We are the professionals, or at least we are supposed to be. When someone calls me I'm giving them my honest opinion, and if that means telling them to find someone else to screw up their house, I'll do it.

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And daArch's point is that his standards are higher and would rather not do the job and make no money.
So this is all about making money. That is a very short-term attitude. Do you make more money by doing the customer wrong (even when they ask for it) or by having integrity and doing what is right? In the long term, which is what I focus on, more will be made by doing what is right. Every time.

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When given options to quality you give options to allow them how much money they want to spend. This is not about work ethics or being a scam. This is about being narrowed into the expectations of the HO.
Options as to quality is one thing. Giving them an option to do something that is a huge mistake is another.

Further, if the customer's expectations are unreasonable we have a moral obligation to address that fact. I do not allow my customers to set the expectations. I find out what they want and need, and then set their expectations accordingly. If I allowed them to set expectations I might as well get a big can of Crisco.

Again, I think that there could be a legitimate debate over removal vs. painting over. My reponse was to Mantis, who stated that he didn't care, as long as he got paid. That is what I object to.

Brian Phillips
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Old 08-31-2008, 06:14 PM   #34
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You will be smeared because the ho will not want to look bad to their friends or family.
Now the Ho is a liar. Covering his @ss because he agreed to a detailed contract that gave specifics and recalls ALL the options and faults if any, to the options. The HO takes a less expensive route due to his own justifications then when if fails blames the painter because he doesn't want to admit that he was given different options of quality at varying prices and chose of his own conscience to take what suited him.

That is the typical world we live in.... unfortunately....

People come from varying perceptions about quality and some simply do not care while others will nickle and dime you to death over it....
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Old 08-31-2008, 06:20 PM   #35
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You give them the expectation, they take it or leave it and you move on.... huh... I'll need chew on that for a while. i have always catered to the customer, not the customer catering to me....

Rethinking the Paint Skin...
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Old 08-31-2008, 06:21 PM   #36
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This really isn't as big of an issue as daArch has created it to be.
It is for contracting professionals.
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Old 08-31-2008, 06:21 PM   #37
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So, a HO says.. "I want you to do the job, we can't afford to take the WP down, what do you recommend?" I say, "Prime and paint over it". They say, "Sounds Good!". I land $5K and go onto the next job... Am I responsible for not taking the WP down? No. The HO is. Are my work ethics any different? No. I offered to take the WP down, they didn't want it done, it is no longer my responsibility and I won't loose sleep over it. It's that simple. It's not a scam nor is it anything to do with morals.
You seem to confuse work ethic with being moral. These are 2 totally different issues. Work ethic means working hard, providing an honest day's work for a day's pay.

To claim that it has nothing to do with morals is absurd. Every human action involving choice is a moral issue. Every choice involves right or wrong, and the choice we make is guided by our morals.

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We all live to make a good or decent living and do well at it for what we want out of it.
Speak for yourself. I live to enjoy my life and achieve my values. Making a good or decent wage is a given.

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This really isn't as big of an issue as daArch has created it to be.
And it is far, far bigger than you seem to think it is.

I will tolerate a lot of things. I will not tolerate dishonesty, in any form, in any issue, for any reason. I am not accusing you of anything, I am simply explaining my vehemence.

Brian Phillips
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Old 08-31-2008, 06:24 PM   #38
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Jason,

I do appreciate customers who think they cannot afford the job done "right" and who think they are saving money by cutting corners. Remember, I was born, bred, raised, and do business in the land of THRIFTY Yankees.

But I do not buy the logic of doing a job "wrong" when it will end up costing much more to make it right in the future. As the old ad campaign says, "You can pay me now, or you can pay me later". Or even better, the old New England saying, "A stitch in time says nine". Doing it right SAVES money in the long run. "Quality doesn't cost, it PAYS"

But, as I said before, if the person paying me to do it "wrong" is the one who will suffer and is fully informed of the repercussions, they I can not argue the ethics. I may choose not to do the work because I know I will receive all the blame, but with full disclosure and acceptance of responsibility it ceases to be an ethics question and only one of intelligence.

PS - OH, I would NEVER offer, "or, we can just paint over the wallpaper"




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Old 08-31-2008, 06:26 PM   #39
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Now the Ho is a liar. Covering his @ss
This is just one scenario. Do you think the friend of the ho will believe you or the ho? I think by just doing it right in the 1st place. you will avoid all the scenarios. I am more interested in the repeat business rather than the one time deal. The repeat business meaning the referrals you get off off the job as well.
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Old 08-31-2008, 06:28 PM   #40
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But, as I said before, if the person paying me to do it "wrong" is the one who will suffer and is fully informed of the repercussions, they I can not argue the ethics. I may choose not to do the work because I know I will receive all the blame, but with full disclosure and acceptance of responsibility it ceases to be an ethics question and only one of intelligence.
Very, very well put, and I fully agree.

Brian Phillips
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