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Old 12-21-2011, 11:02 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by BrushJockey View Post
I would think "oil suspended in water" pretty much would define hybrid..?!
I tend to think of hybrids as latex/oil emulsions. Advance is an alkyd suspended in water - no latex to be found - which is not the case in some of the other products out there. Once Advance is dry, all you do have left is an alkyd coating like SI which means you get the same adhesion, hardness and durability as SI. No surprise with the lack of tannin holdout for the primer since the water simply carries the tannin to the surface before the coating dries.
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Old 12-21-2011, 11:12 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by researchhound View Post
SL - Looks like it sprayed nicely through your HVLP and gave you a great looking finished product. What size tip and how much thinning?
I've been looking for a waterborne product that I could run through my HVLP and get good results on trim and doors (especially doors). I've been hoping the Advance might be it.

Dan
A slight reduction about 5%, and a 1.5. I live in a fairly humid climate though.
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Primer makes everything better...
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Old 12-21-2011, 11:28 AM   #63
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I would think "oil suspended in water" pretty much would define hybrid..?!
Its not though, its a different type of technology. "Hybrids" have been around for years, the old Moorgard was a "hybrid". Sikkens Rubbol is a "hybrid". Advance is a Waterborne Alkyd, not a "hybrid".


Think of it like hybrid vehicles. The Prius has a gas motor and an electric motor. The electric motor runs in stop and go traffic usually under 15mph, over 15mph and your're running on a standard gasoline engine. The Volt uses an electric motor solely for power, it does use standard gasoline to power a generator to run the electric motor when the batteries are out. The gasoline generator is not providing power to the wheels. So the Volt is not a hybrid, although it may seem similar, its not.
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Old 12-21-2011, 11:36 AM   #64
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Just admit it, BM used magic to make Advance. Everyone knows oil and water don't mix.

It is a fantastic finish.



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Primer makes everything better...

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Old 12-21-2011, 11:39 AM   #65
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Just admit it, BM used magic to make Advance. Everyone knows oil and water don't mix.
Its Paint VooDoo. I ordered a shrunken paint can, some enchanted rollers, and a holy paint brush from Ebay
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Old 12-21-2011, 01:09 PM   #66
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Just admit it, BM used magic to make Advance. Everyone knows oil and water don't mix.

It is a fantastic finish.
I still dont like the primer. As for the Advance Enamel? I never really got a chance to use it. My local BM dealer totally droppped the ball on a color match so I went with SW Pro Classic Water/Oil. Personally, I think that stuff is garbage. That job from my original post turned into a complete disaster. I finally went with products Im used to. I ended up reshooting everything with SW Easy Sand and two coats of Pro Classic Oil. Everything ende3d up with 5 and 6 coats.
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Old 12-21-2011, 01:17 PM   #67
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I still dont like the primer. As for the Advance Enamel? I never really got a chance to use it. My local BM dealer totally droppped the ball on a color match so I went with SW Pro Classic Water/Oil. Personally, I think that stuff is garbage. That job from my original post turned into a complete disaster. I finally went with products Im used to. I ended up reshooting everything with SW Easy Sand and two coats of Pro Classic Oil. Everything ende3d up with 5 and 6 coats.
Even my SW supplier won't say anything nice about their water/oil product. He kinda' acts like it doesn't exist.
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Old 12-21-2011, 01:26 PM   #68
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Even my Rep said I shouldnt have used it. I was like...."ok, your supposed to tell me that BEFORE!" They did make it right. Sorta. Some free products. But, BM insisted I send a bill for labor on lost time with the primer. Heck, I should just start complaining all the time Unfortuneatly, thats not my style though.
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Old 12-21-2011, 02:04 PM   #69
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Its not though, its a different type of technology. "Hybrids" have been around for years, the old Moorgard was a "hybrid". Sikkens Rubbol is a "hybrid". Advance is a Waterborne Alkyd, not a "hybrid".


Think of it like hybrid vehicles. The Prius has a gas motor and an electric motor. The electric motor runs in stop and go traffic usually under 15mph, over 15mph and your're running on a standard gasoline engine. The Volt uses an electric motor solely for power, it does use standard gasoline to power a generator to run the electric motor when the batteries are out. The gasoline generator is not providing power to the wheels. So the Volt is not a hybrid, although it may seem similar, its not.
Sorry, your analogy doesn't work for me. In the case of the car it's an either/or thing. With the waterborne/alkyd paint the properties must work as one (not independently) with each other. How is a WB/ALK different from a hybrid? Not trying to be a smart ass or difficult - just curious.
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Old 12-21-2011, 02:17 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by researchhound

Sorry, your analogy doesn't work for me. In the case of the car it's an either/or thing. With the waterborne/alkyd paint the properties must work as one (not independently) with each other. How is a WB/ALK different from a hybrid? Not trying to be a smart ass or difficult - just curious.
The wb/alk are the best of both worlds. You get the oil performance with the ability to clean up with warm soap and water.i would still concerned them a hybrid product since they take the oil resins and make water the "solvent"..two into one..to me they still smell like an oil just not as bad. There is a difference between water born and water based. Water born means it cleans up with water, but still has resins that are not water soluable. Water based means that the resins clean up with water.
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Old 12-21-2011, 02:20 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by researchhound View Post
Sorry, your analogy doesn't work for me. In the case of the car it's an either/or thing. With the waterborne/alkyd paint the properties must work as one (not independently) with each other. How is a WB/ALK different from a hybrid? Not trying to be a smart ass or difficult - just curious.
A hybrid product is one that incorporates both "latex" and "oil" resins into the same can. Like he stated with the old B.M. exterior paints - they are a "latex" product for the most point, but incorporate alkyd resins as well, thus it's a hybrid.

Waterborne technology is only referring to the actual thinner being used, in this case, water. They've re-engineered an alkyd molecule, I'd assume to have near neutral buoyancy in H2O, that's how it is suspended in water. Where as practical experience with many oils from cooking to motor to paint, oil is usually too light and floats to the top. Throw in some surfactants for good measure, and *pooof* you have a water based oil paint, which by definition is a waterborne technology.

Just remember, latex paints when they first came out were suspended in paint thinner! We've all come to think latex/vinyl/acrylic as being naturally suspended by water, but in reality it took years to get those molecules to suspend in water as well. Heck there is still a Zinsser primer product that is latex resin in paint thinner - that's how it use be!
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Old 12-21-2011, 02:48 PM   #72
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Thanks for the replies.

Can still remember my dad (not a painter) using a latex on the outside of our house for the first time (mid sixties?) - "Well, this stuff is just plain [email protected]!!!"
The look on his face when he said it still makes me laugh.

As I've mentioned before, what I'm really looking for is a product that will spray out of an HVLP and level out like an oil with the dry time being closer to that of a waterbased product. Hope they are there or getting close
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Old 12-21-2011, 03:43 PM   #73
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As I've mentioned before, what I'm really looking for is a product that will spray out of an HVLP and level out like an oil with the dry time being closer to that of a waterbased product. Hope they are there or getting close
Dan nailed it with his reply. Im not a chemist by any means, but Dan pretty much summed it up.

As far as your product, I know some of my customers and a member ( cant remember his name but hes posted pics ) here have had good luck spraying Aura Satin with HVLP setups.
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Old 12-21-2011, 04:10 PM   #74
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Even my Rep said I shouldnt have used it. I was like...."ok, your supposed to tell me that BEFORE!" They did make it right. Sorta. Some free products. But, BM insisted I send a bill for labor on lost time with the primer. Heck, I should just start complaining all the time Unfortuneatly, thats not my style though.
It's cool they insisted on making it right.
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Old 12-21-2011, 04:29 PM   #75
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A hybrid product is one that incorporates both "latex" and "oil" resins into the same can. Like he stated with the old B.M. exterior paints - they are a "latex" product for the most point, but incorporate alkyd resins as well, thus it's a hybrid.
Excellent point Dan. Remember Moorgard years back? That was a hybrid then-just no one was calling it such. Try to wash out a brush that had been in Country Redwood all day with some H20-not gonna happen
You're were left with a sticky mess...
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Old 12-21-2011, 04:56 PM   #76
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I always thought black was/is the worst. You have to keep a water bottle handy in the summer time as well. I will never be able to forget the smell.
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