Bubbling on Cedar (lap) siding - Paint Talk - Professional Painting Contractors Forum
CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY, IT'S FREE!
Go Back   Paint Talk - Professional Painting Contractors Forum > Painting Forum > General Painting Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-23-2013, 05:57 PM   #1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 3
Rewards Points: 10
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
View EvansAndEvans's Photo Album My Photos
Default Bubbling on Cedar (lap) siding

Hey guys (and gals) I have a question for you that is sure to bring out many theories and opinions.
What is the cause of latex "bubbling" on old cedar siding?

I am painting in the Northwest and have found old houses build between 1890's and 1940's that have horizontal cedar overlapping siding, to be prone to bubbling when painted over with latex.

Obviously I am not applying the first coat of paint as these are old structures and all i have been able to do, short of heat-gun scraping, is to scrape off old and peeling paint, sand down the edges, apply a coat of oil-based primer, then a coat, or even two coats of Peel Stop or similar product, and paint. But The bubbles come back, just in a different area.

I tell the client that it is moisture vapor leaving the structure, finding the path of least resistance, but they want to pin it on the painter. I just cannot find an answer that satisfies peoples frustration that seems to plague painters here in the Northwest. Any ideas? And thanks if you got this far.
EvansAndEvans is offline   Reply With Quote

Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. PaintTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 06-23-2013, 06:27 PM   #2
Paint Store Owner
 
NCPaint1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 5,550
Rewards Points: 2,000
Thanks: 1,374
Thanked 2,995 Times in 1,802 Posts
View NCPaint1's Photo Album My Photos
Default

You answered it. If the HO's don't like the answer, well that's too bad....its reality. Most of the newer cedar sided jobs around here have vents. They can still peel even when properly installed. Cedar doesn't like to be painted.
__________________
Benjamin Moore, PPG, Sikkens, TWP, Wood Defender, Airless Sales and Service


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
NCPaint1 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to NCPaint1 For This Useful Post:
6126 (06-23-2013), Oden (06-23-2013), playedout6 (06-23-2013)
Old 06-23-2013, 06:46 PM   #3
Paint to fish

 
DeanV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: MI
Posts: 9,447
Rewards Points: 170
Thanks: 958
Thanked 5,166 Times in 2,819 Posts
View DeanV's Photo Album My Photos
Default

We have some rough side out cedar siding that we have done since the mid 90's and the base primer is finally letting loose. Started with a little bubbling a couple years ago and now it is starting to let loose all over.
DeanV is online now   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 06-23-2013, 07:41 PM   #4
Born 2 Paint
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 5,021
Rewards Points: 1,394
Thanks: 6,089
Thanked 2,924 Times in 1,609 Posts
View 6126's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvansAndEvans View Post
Hey guys (and gals) I have a question for you that is sure to bring out many theories and opinions.
What is the cause of latex "bubbling" on old cedar siding?

I am painting in the Northwest and have found old houses build between 1890's and 1940's that have horizontal cedar overlapping siding, to be prone to bubbling when painted over with latex.

Obviously I am not applying the first coat of paint as these are old structures and all i have been able to do, short of heat-gun scraping, is to scrape off old and peeling paint, sand down the edges, apply a coat of oil-based primer, then a coat, or even two coats of Peel Stop or similar product, and paint. But The bubbles come back, just in a different area.

I tell the client that it is moisture vapor leaving the structure, finding the path of least resistance, but they want to pin it on the painter. I just cannot find an answer that satisfies peoples frustration that seems to plague painters here in the Northwest. Any ideas? And thanks if you got this far.
I am also in the NW, and I no longer do the "Peelers". Its just not worth it. I stay plenty busy repainting the newer homes with Hardi-Plank siding.
6126 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to 6126 For This Useful Post:
playedout6 (01-13-2015)
Old 06-23-2013, 07:52 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
y.painting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,886
Rewards Points: 1,000
Thanks: 349
Thanked 1,136 Times in 611 Posts
View y.painting's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Somewhat common here on old cedar clapboard. Usually moisture (no/little venting on those older homes).

Although I've seen it happen in places like barge boards or window trim where moisture wasn't the issue. Two homes last year - the HOs both cut down very large trees that fully shaded the west side of the homes. Painted the homes after cutting down the trees and a few weeks of intense sun on those sides produced new bubbling (down to bare wood) which never happened before even though the homes have been painted plenty prior to the trees coming down.
y.painting is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2013, 07:58 PM   #6
Almost Gone
 
TJ Paint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Wind River Range
Posts: 10,730
Rewards Points: 516
Thanks: 4,949
Thanked 6,377 Times in 3,759 Posts
View TJ Paint's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Got this house right now. No peeling. Love those.

One time right after painting it started bubbling. The house was old and not wrapped. I told him beforehand it might do that. I felt bad but not enough to duck when he paid me.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
TJ Paint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2013, 08:20 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delete this account
Posts: 8,761
Rewards Points: 250
Thanks: 4
Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts
View Epoxy Pro's Photo Album My Photos
Default

We are having this issue on only one side of a small addition, this is the only part of the house that was not ripped apart since it was a recent addition, it is only bubbling on one wall and not the rest of the house, the contractor and i had talked, they found a roof leak above that wall after tearing into it they found it has a vapor barrier on the inside and outside of the framing, this is a bad no no for old homes, it has only a ridge vent and soffit vent the new contractor added, the peeling side has a smaller roof with no peak or vents. It is cedar siding, I paint these all the time and over all my years I have only seen this 3 times, the house being sealed up way to tight was the issue on 2 the 3rd I have no idea they never called the guy I worked for back after we repainted it.
Epoxy Pro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2013, 08:32 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 403
Rewards Points: 334
Thanks: 79
Thanked 384 Times in 187 Posts
View Carl's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Maybe scrap the oil based primer since water vapor cannot pass through that and use an acrylic primer that breathes. Also, make sure the gap under each board is clear.
Carl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2013, 08:55 PM   #9
Retired Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Intermountain West
Posts: 10,539
Rewards Points: 840
Thanks: 11,620
Thanked 10,458 Times in 5,722 Posts
View Gough's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvansAndEvans View Post
Hey guys (and gals) I have a question for you that is sure to bring out many theories and opinions.
What is the cause of latex "bubbling" on old cedar siding?

I am painting in the Northwest and have found old houses build between 1890's and 1940's that have horizontal cedar overlapping siding, to be prone to bubbling when painted over with latex.

Obviously I am not applying the first coat of paint as these are old structures and all i have been able to do, short of heat-gun scraping, is to scrape off old and peeling paint, sand down the edges, apply a coat of oil-based primer, then a coat, or even two coats of Peel Stop or similar product, and paint. But The bubbles come back, just in a different area.

I tell the client that it is moisture vapor leaving the structure, finding the path of least resistance, but they want to pin it on the painter. I just cannot find an answer that satisfies peoples frustration that seems to plague painters here in the Northwest. Any ideas? And thanks if you got this far.
First of all, what's under the bubbles? The general rule of thumb is that, if it's bare wood, moisture is the culprit; if it's other paint, it's either solvent bubbling or interlayer failure.

We've been painting cedar-sided homes of this vintage for 40 years in this area (Inland Northwest). The only time we've had a problem with blisters has been with solvent blisters from dark colors getting in the sun too soon.

I'm curious about oil primer, then Peel Stop. Why both? We normally just use a long-oil primer with good results.

I've also been the contrarian here on PT about paint on cedar. Probably 95% of the houses here that were built before 1970 are sided with cedar claps. We paint them with oil primer and acrylic latex and often see 12-15 years out of a paint job.

I can think of one job where we had widespread paint peeling, and the owners had had a huge ice dam the previous winter, completely saturating the wall cavity and causing a large amount of plaster damage as well.
Gough is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2013, 02:21 AM   #10
Painting Contractor
 
Damon T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 4,063
Rewards Points: 7,038
Thanks: 4,409
Thanked 2,729 Times in 1,600 Posts
View Damon T's Photo Album My Photos
Default

I'm with you Gough. Been painting older homes in the NW for the last 20+ years and cedar is great. Especially the old quarter sawn boards. Beautiful stuff. The newer flat grain boards that occasionally pop up in remodel stuff is pretty bad, but mostly because of the way the grain pops up.
Once an older home starts blistering I tell owners unless we strip it all to bare wood you WILL get bubbles again. Impossible to say where or how much, but it will come back. Typically peels at the edges where it has previously been scraped down to bare wood.
We used the long oil primers with success for years, I think it was called Moorwhite? Nowadays mostly just peel bond, permanizer plus, etc as a tie coat to help stabilize things, and if there's any concern about tannin bleed spot hit just the areas that went to bare with Smart Prime, 123+ etc. usually the extra step isn't needed. A lot of times the old cedar isn't as "bleedy" as new stuff IMO.
Damon T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2013, 09:38 AM   #11
Retired Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Intermountain West
Posts: 10,539
Rewards Points: 840
Thanks: 11,620
Thanked 10,458 Times in 5,722 Posts
View Gough's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damon T View Post
I'm with you Gough. Been painting older homes in the NW for the last 20+ years and cedar is great. Especially the old quarter sawn boards. Beautiful stuff. The newer flat grain boards that occasionally pop up in remodel stuff is pretty bad, but mostly because of the way the grain pops up.
Once an older home starts blistering I tell owners unless we strip it all to bare wood you WILL get bubbles again. Impossible to say where or how much, but it will come back. Typically peels at the edges where it has previously been scraped down to bare wood.
We used the long oil primers with success for years, I think it was called Moorwhite? Nowadays mostly just peel bond, permanizer plus, etc as a tie coat to help stabilize things, and if there's any concern about tannin bleed spot hit just the areas that went to bare with Smart Prime, 123+ etc. usually the extra step isn't needed. A lot of times the old cedar isn't as "bleedy" as new stuff IMO.
We've seen that same blistering at the edges of scraped areas when we've come on some jobs. I've wondered if it's due to the previous guys trying to feather the edges with power sanders and heating up those thick areas of old paint to the point where they're prone to failure.

I'm amazed how the quarter-sawn stuff still looks like new when we remove all those layers of paint. And it certainly does hold paint a lot better than the flat sawn claps.

When you have to strip it, what do you use? We've used both the PaintShaver and the Metabo, but keep coming back to heat plates and scrapers. It can be tedious, but we can do it with minimal damage to the old surfaces.

We've generally used either PPG #1-70 or the BM primer, which they now call Fresh Start Moorwhite.
Gough is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2013, 07:30 PM   #12
Painting Contractor
 
Damon T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 4,063
Rewards Points: 7,038
Thanks: 4,409
Thanked 2,729 Times in 1,600 Posts
View Damon T's Photo Album My Photos
Default

If I get another strip job I'll buy the paint shaver pro. I've used the Metabo primarily, which I think is a good tool, but the videos of the new paint shaver head look like they have better dust control than the Metabo. The little doors on the sides of the Metabo break off pretty quickly. I've taped stir sticks etc around the side to help with containment.
Damon T is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Damon T For This Useful Post:
Gough (06-24-2013)
Old 07-01-2013, 11:52 AM   #13
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 3
Rewards Points: 10
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
View EvansAndEvans's Photo Album My Photos
Default

I really want to thank everyone on here for all the pro advice. It has helped a lot.
EvansAndEvans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 02:14 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,388
Rewards Points: 2,000
Thanks: 218
Thanked 1,028 Times in 672 Posts
View plainpainter's Photo Album My Photos
Default

I don't necessarily believe moisture is the culprit - there may be actual vapor causing the bubble, but I think the interpretation is backwards. There is always moisture in wood - the problem comes when the primer deteriorates, whether it be crumbly or didn't stick because wood had mill glaze. It's when the sun heats the surface, similar to using a heat gun that makes the paint expand and comes off the surface and form a bubble.

You can do this experiment - take a piece of wood measure it's moisture content - preferably kiln dried or really seasoned anything - and prime and paint. Wait a month or two and then stick a heat gun on it - it will bubble. Now it won't bubble under ordinary circumstances, but a surface can get as hot as 170-200 degrees in the direct sunlight - so if this wood had more than normal moisture, improperly prepared surface - then something might let go.
__________________
Daniel Tambasco
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Where the professionals go to make sure Harry homeowner isn't getting too many quotes!
plainpainter is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to plainpainter For This Useful Post:
Gough (07-01-2013)
Old 01-11-2015, 02:29 AM   #15
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 2
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
View Mustache Paul's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Depends on when it bubbles, prior to painting or in the course of it. A lot of the older cedar homes had solid body stains applied which at the time of use were open architectured coatings that could breathe and allow moisture to move in and more importantly out of a surface. The newer products are "weather resistant" read as more like paint than stain. So what I have had happen is a surface that looked solid and tight to the siding all of a sudden balloons out on the second coat (which I spray).

For other blistering problems if it's widespread I just re plane all the siding in place and dress sand it out. Regards Mustache Paul
Mustache Paul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2015, 07:47 AM   #16
PinheadsUnite
 
daArch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: almost there
Posts: 30,724
Rewards Points: 1,696
Thanks: 13,929
Thanked 17,336 Times in 10,141 Posts
View daArch's Photo Album My Photos
Default

DAMN, got sucked into another necro.

Read like the first seven posts before realizing it was over a year and a half old. I GOTTA look at the dates before reading.



__________________
"Glazed Donuts Are the Building Blocks of the Universe"

"Are we having fun yet"
daArch is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to daArch For This Useful Post:
playedout6 (01-13-2015)
Reply

Tags
None

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cedar Siding Replacement ColorQuest General Painting Discussion 18 11-04-2012 12:26 PM
Help with cedar siding HorizonPainting Surface Preparation and Application 5 10-06-2012 06:42 AM
cedar shake siding jacob33 Pressure Washing 8 10-31-2011 09:10 AM
Cedar Lap siding issue nEighter Surface Preparation and Application 15 08-26-2011 09:03 PM
new cedar siding johnpaint Specialty Coatings 5 10-22-2008 09:31 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Our Pro Sites Network
ContractorTalk.com | DrywallTalk.com | ElectricianTalk.com | HVACSite.com | PlumbingZone.com | RoofingTalk.com