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Old 02-13-2010, 11:25 PM   #161
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I got no love for Certa "pro"

End of '08 these pricks moved into my NC territory by undercutting us by thousands per job.

Of course, i'd get the call from the GC to "fix" their work when all attempts at contacting them for warranty issues would fail.

Eventually I stopped answering calls from the GC for this type of thing. Told them "if you hired us instead of these clowns you wouldn't have this problem".
My experience has been that they tend to bid the job for what they think it will sell for, not for the right value of time. They think that volume in sales will make up for low to no margins. Slippery slope.
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Old 02-15-2010, 03:37 AM   #162
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This was a very interesting thread to read from start to finish. I actually read through it after someone said "and then there was an awkward pause" on my introductions thread after I stated that I worked for CertaPro Painters.

I decided to do a search and see why

I'll try to shed a little more light on the subject as I may have the most experience with some of these franchise companies than anyone else in here.

Personally I hate the idea of a franchised painting business that markets to people that have not painted before, ESPECIALLY students. ( On that note College Pro Painters are owned by the same company as CertaPro Painters, The Franchise Company ) Within my first summer of painting as a student I hated the lack of training I recieved as well as the care that some people that I worked with.

A little background information, I was one of the idiots that got roped into the student painting franchise BS. It was actually fairly legitimate compared to some of the other companies, they were approved by the university to put up a stand, and held interviews in the university offices and such, and fully disclosed all of the negative possibilities of running the business. Reading online it seems like a lot of people get tricked into signing forms they do not understand, but personally I had everything thoroughly explained to me and I understood all of the risks.

I started marketing in my area ( University Heights ) it was full of student rental units, as well as a few scattered family homes and professors, but it was drowned with student housing so you can guess how well my marketing went. Cold calling was the main way to get leads, knocking on doors in the cold ( -45 C ). You could also draw leads from the Telemarketing agents that they provide, at a cost of $40 per estimate completed. I had many estimates that were around the $200 mark for a few windows and a door. About half of these leads I called had no idea who I was and told me not to call them again.

As I grew closer to the summer I was having an extremely hard time meeting the companies goals and was growing tired of the business model, as I started to realize how little I was able to book and what this franchise was going to cost me. I got very lucky however, before the summer started my franchisee approached me and offered for me to walk, scott free, if I was willing to give up my franchise to another trained franchisee that was waiting in the wings. I jumped on this since I didn't want to cough up roughly 20 grand in damages if everything went as badly as I had expected.

I worked for a successful franchisee for the summer following me leaving, and that is where I picked up most of my early painting experience. I mostly learned by trial and error, since the franchise manager spends most of his/her time doing estimates and doing crew moves.

The following summer I needed a new job, and I made the decision to work for College Pro again, since my last summer had gone well. I was told to go work for a rookie manager, and I began doing things like training his new employees, half doing estimates for him, doing his painter interviews, I felt like I was running his business for him, then he wasn't returning my phone calls, and not giving me jobsites to go to. I eventually called the top returning manager and he had me working the next day. This franchisee that I left was out of business a month later.

This manager worked a college pro franchise for 5 years, and owned a house since his business had done well enough for him to enable him to do so. He also ran his business year round, which included interior work, so I was able to keep busy year round. I learned how to use a paint sprayer and this manager was very much hands on, he knew how to paint, which he had learned over time running his business and passed on what he did know to me, however i quickly outgrew his experience and was giving him pointers and fixing his mistakes.

The business structure is designed to be hands off for managers so it's expected that employees will outperform the franchisee.

That's it for my personal College Pro experience, I'll try to get back to the gritty stuff. I have a close friend that stayed with his franchise agreement for the summer.

His first paint job was for his parents and it was a total nightmare, he fired 2 employees and 2 quit, destroyed the gardens and could have been sued had it not been his parents house. College pro had put everyone through a one day how to paint seminar. This included how to hold a paint brush, we painted a board on a pallet, setup and climbed an extension ladder, then spent the rest of the day watching slides on surface prep and paint application procedures. Unfortunately that is where the training ends for most of the painters. I was fortunate enough to work for a returning manager that knew a thing or two about how to paint so I got a few tips and caught on quickly otherwise.

My friend just about lost his shirt that summer, learned a lot of life lessons, lost a few friends, but managed to eek out a few bucks profit for his extremely long hours through the summer.

Royalties of 35%ish once the marketing costs etc are included were the norm, and even after your royalty break of 75k where your royalty costs drop, they seem to keep thinking up new fees to charge you with anyways so you do not make more money off of the jobs you are running, but for these companies, it's a lot of money.

I would never work with or hire a company like this ever.... the lack of training and the taking advantage of students is terrible. There is a potential to make a profit, but it's rare, and a profit WORTH all the work is even more rare.

As far as CertaPro goes, I've had mostly positive experiences with so far. The 5 year College Pro manager I worked for purchased a CertaPro Franchise. He had years of hands on experience, and a couple of crews as well. The franchisee fees were much more reasonable, and the support offered by corporate CertaPro was far more impressive than we had ever seen with College Pro even though they were owned by the same company. Once you add the natianol marketing costs and such it's approximately 15% of the net margins that go to CertaPro as well as the initial investment required.

So far he has had his business for 4 years, and took over a dieing franchise next to his, after the previous owner pretty well burnt it to the ground. He purchased the franchise for 1 dollar, and took on the debt he owed to corporate CertaPro. This may have been the roughest step in his business so far, but he is still growing, and did close to a million dollars in revenue in his second year, and is still growing.

He mostly used employees, but in a recent conversation I learned that he now has converted all employees to subcontractors. Recently the local CertaPro franchise also converted many employees to piecerate/subcontracting agreements including myself. This is to help the franchisees control costs in a rought market i suppose.

The current franchise I am working for has been running for 14 years, and was bought by the current owner 10 years ago from his boss at the time. He was one of the top employees, and offered to buy the company when the previous owner decided to go into IT ( since the previous owner had no painting background and grew tired of the business ) The new owner is a certified journeyman painter, which in my opinion doesn't mean a whole lot for quality of work someone can do compared to someone who is not a journeyman like myself, but with a much better knowledge of the business I feel that he is able to run it much more effectively than a random person out to make a buck.

Last year this franchise did approximately 1.6 million in revenue and the owner made a tidy profit, even buying himself a new boat.

There are franchisees that run 20 million dollar businesses that don't know how to lift a brush, which makes my stomache churn a bit but they did at least something right.

These franchises can make money, and the whole point is to make money right?...........



For years I have taken great pride in my work, and ran my own independent business for 2 years, and it wasn't even planned. I simply took on more and more jobs that came my way that started with friends and family, and the circle kept growing. Never spent a dime on marketing, customers sought me out after their friend gave them a raving review of me. Leaving this business behind was tough for me.

Now that I am working as a subcontractor I make a fixed dollar amount per job, and with the way the market is, and the numbers I get I take it or someone else will. I still take pride in my work, and unfortunately suffer somewhat financially for it. It takes longer to do a damn good job than to get it done sloppy in and out as fast as possible. Many subcontractors are there simply to get the customer to sign off on the job and collect their check. I've personally spent 3 more days on a jobsite after the customer thought I was finished.

Call me crazy but that's what I call integrity. Was that customer thrilled? You bet.

Once again sorry if this was more of a life story, I tend to do that a lot, but my whole point is that these franchises can work, and I have personally seen many of the successful owners that run them. I have also seen the failures.

My advice is to get your hands dirty, and learn as much about painting as you can, that way if you're operating these companies, you have much more control over problem solving major issues that can come up. I may not agree with everything my boss says, but at least he's got a foot to stand on rather than relying on some manual, or trying to BS his way through a major cost issue. The managers that have this experience seem to have slow steady growth, hire better, and overall are more successful.

Would I ever purchase a franchise? Probably not, I prefer to target high end customers that are out of reach most of the time for a company like CertaPro. I also tend to charge less than CertaPro does here in the cities I live in, but more than the average joes painting company as well, or at least I did in Calgary. I prefer to have the lower overhead of a smaller company and larger margins on fewer jobs, that the volume based cost controlling giant franchises that roll into town.

My 2 cents, or perhaps 12 in this case
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Old 02-15-2010, 03:38 AM   #163
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Just realized how long that was.....

Sorry
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Old 02-15-2010, 04:46 AM   #164
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Now that I am working as a subcontractor I make a fixed dollar amount per job, and with the way the market is, and the numbers I get I take it or someone else will. I still take pride in my work, and unfortunately suffer somewhat financially for it.
Anybody who takes pride in his work is a tremendous asset to the company and the customer...and has reason to be proud of himself.

Of course, that may not be the rule for others. I know of jobs that had to be redone because the subcontractor didn't care about the quality of the work.

To paraphrase Forrest Gump's mama, subcontractors are like a box of chocolates...

Now imagine a new franchisee who's never painted and never worked with painters, who has to produce a minimum of 5 or more jobs per week...and he's gonna have to find subcontractors to do the work.


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...my whole point is that these franchises can work, and I have personally seen many of the successful owners that run them. I have also seen the failures.
CertaPro touts several success stories--there are several multi-million dollar franchises, including San Fran, Indy, Tampa, and probably a few others. Some of them own multiple territories. Some of them do commercial work (which most new franchisees don't--and can't). They've had years to get to that size.

Success can depend on a number of factors: Knowledge of the business, the local market and how competitive it is, whether or not you can find decent painters, the effectiveness of your marketing, how much capital you have available, whether or not you need to draw money from the business in the first few years, even the weather.

I happen to believe CertaPro's marketing lures the unwitting into a business they may not prepared for (accountants, engineers, salesmen, desk jockeys of all sorts), dangling the promise of a million-dollar company in front of them, telling them they don't have to paint, and many of them end up failing. And when they fail, it can feasibly cost them $100,000 or more.

I know of one ex-franchisee who had to move in with his parents because he was broke. There are numerous others who have taken out loans or second mortgages only to watch the business sink and their life savings disappear. I've heard of a franchise being resold several times (with no "winners").

Here's the big problem with it, IMHO: It's a ten-year franchise agreement with a fixed minimum royalty for all ten years. Whether the business succeeds or fails, the franchisee is contractually responsible for minimum franchise payments for the entire ten years.

Would you buy a car you've never driven and agree to make payments on it for ten years, even if it stops running and all the wheels fall off?

I imagine there are quite a few franchisees who aren't making any money, or struggling, but they simply can't walk away from a business they've got $150,00 or more invested in (possibly their entire savings and debt).

It's reported 80% to 90% of all new businesses fail within five years, depending on the source. I have to doubt that it's any different for CertaPro.

The franchisor has nothing to lose; the franchisee can lose everything.
And some do.
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Old 02-15-2010, 10:07 AM   #165
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Just realized how long that was.....

Sorry
It's all good man. You sound like a guy with a good head on his shoulders and no one here is going to hold who you work for against you - you do what you can to survive in these times. Just don't let their 'work ethic' rub off on you and you'll do fine.

On a side note, I happen to know your bosses personally. One of them I like and one I really don't. I've had a couple of their guys work for me in the past as well - all I can really say is that I wasn't too impressed with at least one of them for reasons I wouldn't get into on a public forum.

Anyhow, i'd be happy to discuss more in PM when you have that capability.

Cheers
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Old 02-15-2010, 10:52 AM   #166
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BC Painter, Excellent perspective from a guy on the inside! That was one of the more interesting posts I've ever read on this forum, especially in light of all the controversy surrounding franchises lately.

Thanks
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Old 02-15-2010, 10:56 AM   #167
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BC Painter, Excellent perspective from a guy on the inside! That was one of the more interesting posts I've ever read on this forum, especially in light of all the controversy surrounding franchises lately.

Thanks

I know you are in Canada, so the rules on subcontracting are different, are you truly a sub?
You provide your own insurance,license , uniform, tools, dictate process and time?
Or can "anyone" be a sub?
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Old 02-15-2010, 11:00 AM   #168
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I know you are in Canada, so the rules on subcontracting are different, are you truly a sub?
You provide your own insurance,license , uniform, tools, dictate process and time?
Or can "anyone" be a sub?
CP subs are not real subs.

Their insurance and WCB are supplied by CP and they pay a percentage for their coverage out of their contract. They are required to wear CP logoed gear and CP provides equipment.

They are robbed blind on what they're paid to perform the work.

How do I know this? I've employed 2 former CP painters and 1 former CP sub.
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Old 02-15-2010, 12:43 PM   #169
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CP subs are not real subs.

Their insurance and WCB are supplied by CP and they pay a percentage for their coverage out of their contract. They are required to wear CP logoed gear and CP provides equipment.

They are robbed blind on what they're paid to perform the work.

How do I know this? I've employed 2 former CP painters and 1 former CP sub.
Doesnt need their own equipment, insurance, license, or even clothes. Sounds alot like an employee to me.
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Old 02-15-2010, 01:03 PM   #170
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Doesnt need their own equipment, insurance, license, or even clothes. Sounds alot like an employee to me.
Basically. CP does it so they can have the work done for the least amount possible with no possibility of it costing them a cent more than they contracted with their sub.

Of course, this is why much of their work is so shoddy. When they're getting paid $1200 to do a job that CP contracts for $7500 the do it as fast as possible and take as many shortcuts as they can so they will at least earn $10/hr. Of course i'm not saying all their guys do shoddy work but that is perdominantly the case.

I recall an exterior job I lost to CP 2 summers ago. I don't know what they got it for but I quoted 10G. I was working on an interior across the street when they started - 2 guys got out there with rollers and hammered all the fascia with them, gunning all the overhanging shingles in the process. They fired 2 coats on the frames but didn't prep 1. When I finished the house I was working on I got called over to finish all the jambs which were not touched, to do the overhead door which was not touched, and to do the front door which again was not touched.

That wasn't the only job (in that neighborhood alone) I got called in to fix up after their subs left.

BTW this isn't aimed at you BC_Painter and i'm not saying you'd work like this, it's just my experience with them is all.
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Old 02-15-2010, 02:53 PM   #171
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2 guys got out there with rollers and hammered all the fascia with them, gunning all the overhanging shingles in the process. They fired 2 coats on the frames but didn't prep 1. When I finished the house I was working on I got called over to finish all the jambs which were not touched, to do the overhead door which was not touched, and to do the front door which again was not touched.

That wasn't the only job (in that neighborhood alone) I got called in to fix up after their subs left.
This is the reality of any model where the structure is set up like this.

The more people taking a cut, the harder it is for everyone to make a living. Clearly the first place this is going to show is the work is going to suffer.

But again the franchise corporations don't give a rat's ass, because they make their money regardless of whether the franchisee fails or not.They saturate the market with desperate people, and that is the result.
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Old 02-15-2010, 09:52 PM   #172
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Yeah I know of a few bad stories with subs, and unfortunately the system rewards shoddy work.

One thing however I do provide my own equipment and I have liability insurance. ( Any sub, no matter what should have this in case something happens and CertaPro's insurance company goes after you after you sign the form saying that you're responsible for any losses on the job, haha )

I have the option of using wither my own, or CertaPro's WCB since I am a one man operation ( I know this from my experience in Calgary ) so I am opting to use CertaPro's since it will cost me far less. As soon as I start doing anything outside of CertsPro again as well I will be setting up my own WCB account again, takes 5 minutes anyways

I get to set all of my own hours as well, as long as I am working within the customers needs, which I would do anyways.

I do have to wear CertaPro garb (I'm not allowed to advertise my own business on theire sites, I already got nailed for an old toque )

Oh I am responsible for all materials on my jobs as well.

There are a few different subcontractor relationships with this company, I prefer this one to the others, like the one described above this post ( I can't imagine getting paid 1200 to paint a 7500 job, I'd walk off. )
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Old 02-15-2010, 10:31 PM   #173
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wow that's a lot of reading will there be a quiz?
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Old 02-15-2010, 10:46 PM   #174
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MIGHT be a pop quiz on friday ** hint hint **
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Old 02-16-2010, 12:35 AM   #175
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Gonna have to study now .........
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Old 02-17-2010, 04:52 PM   #176
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What do you guys make of the article in the last PWC on franchising? I took it as essentially an endorsement of the franchise model by PWC, although they do outline some common pitfalls to watch for.

Interestingly, in their list of national pain franchises, they do not mention certa, although both cf and 5star are mentioned.
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:25 AM   #177
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What do you guys make of the article in the last PWC on franchising? I took it as essentially an endorsement of the franchise model by PWC, although they do outline some common pitfalls to watch for.
The article:
http://www.pwc-magazine.com/archive/...2A032D92CB3582

I've seen numerous similar articles: Quotes from a few people, often including the franchise owners (like they will be objective). It's a shallow article--fluff -- although unlike most it does at least mention the possibility of failure.

I disagree with this:
Buyers of franchises get a “giant safety net" (says a franchise owner).
[They also get a huge debt obligation in the form of franchise fees.]

and this seems to be a common selling point:
“To me, the advantage of a franchise is that it helps you run
a painting business, rather than just painting"

(You must know about painting, not just how to run a company)

Then there's this:
"Success stories like these can make a franchise seem pretty
attractive—and for good reason"
(what's the "good reason"?)

Most articles like this include a "success story" or two.
What they don't include: Balance.
Where are comments from failed franchisees?
And here's what's missing: What are the franchise's success rates?

Quote:
Interestingly, in their list of national pain franchises, they do not mention certa, although both cf and 5star are mentioned.
Yeah, that's curious.
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