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Old 02-22-2016, 01:03 PM   #1
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Default Hat-banding/picture framing issue

I got a call from a new homeowner customer this morning and I am going to go check out a problem after work today. The issue is thus;
Three year old condo they bought when new.
Last spring had a painter re-paint interior 4 new colors instead of the light off white it was when they bought it.
Since their regular paint store was just closed and they didn't know I was open yet, they let the painter buy the paint in the P&L colors they had chosen. (I have no idea what paint he used. It wasn't from me.)
Everything looked looked fine and they were quite happy with the job until they got home from 3 months in Florida. As the gentleman described to me on the phone every wall in the house looks like it has "lines or shadows" around every edge of the wall. Tops and bottoms as well.

The condo has been kept at above 60degs. all winter. In fact his daughters family used the condo for a Christmas get together Christmas eve. He said that his son-in-law said that he had noticed this a little bit at Christmastime but thought it was just due to the Christmas lights.

They don't know what the humidity was like all winter but he said they have a pretty high end heat pump/central air that has humidity control. Again this is supposedly on every wall, not just walls against exterior surfaces.

My first thought was that it wasn't cut in adequately, but they actually had to split the job between two painters because the first one had some health problems.(he is 70 something and has been painting a loooooong time.) Both painters had completely different helpers according to the gentleman on the phone, so it wasn't the same person cutting in the whole house.

Any ideas on what I should look for beyond what I have mentioned? The new paint was an "eggshell". Part of the job was two coats over the builders flat and part of it was one. He didn't know if any primer was used or what brand of paint was used. Only that he was told it was "$40 a gallon or so".
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Old 02-22-2016, 01:39 PM   #2
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Id say look no further than improper painting techniques . Either they cut in and that dried before they rolled the wall, making that edge where the paint met have 3 coats ; you'd be surprised how many painters don't know how to properly roll higher gloss paint without any problems.
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Old 02-22-2016, 02:10 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PACman View Post
I got a call from a new homeowner customer this morning and I am going to go check out a problem after work today. The issue is thus;
Three year old condo they bought when new.
Last spring had a painter re-paint interior 4 new colors instead of the light off white it was when they bought it.
Since their regular paint store was just closed and they didn't know I was open yet, they let the painter buy the paint in the P&L colors they had chosen. (I have no idea what paint he used. It wasn't from me.)
Everything looked looked fine and they were quite happy with the job until they got home from 3 months in Florida. As the gentleman described to me on the phone every wall in the house looks like it has "lines or shadows" around every edge of the wall. Tops and bottoms as well.

The condo has been kept at above 60degs. all winter. In fact his daughters family used the condo for a Christmas get together Christmas eve. He said that his son-in-law said that he had noticed this a little bit at Christmastime but thought it was just due to the Christmas lights.

They don't know what the humidity was like all winter but he said they have a pretty high end heat pump/central air that has humidity control. Again this is supposedly on every wall, not just walls against exterior surfaces.

My first thought was that it wasn't cut in adequately, but they actually had to split the job between two painters because the first one had some health problems.(he is 70 something and has been painting a loooooong time.) Both painters had completely different helpers according to the gentleman on the phone, so it wasn't the same person cutting in the whole house.

Any ideas on what I should look for beyond what I have mentioned? The new paint was an "eggshell". Part of the job was two coats over the builders flat and part of it was one. He didn't know if any primer was used or what brand of paint was used. Only that he was told it was "$40 a gallon or so".
Eggshell over flat with no primer is certainly subject to "sheen flashing" at the cut-ins. With only one coat it's pretty much sure to happen.
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Old 02-22-2016, 02:16 PM   #4
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Id say look no further than improper painting techniques . Either they cut in and that dried before they rolled the wall, making that edge where the paint met have 3 coats ; you'd be surprised how many painters don't know how to properly roll higher gloss paint without any problems.
That's what I'm leaning to but wouldn't it have shown up as soon as the walls were painted? As opposed to now?
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Old 02-22-2016, 02:17 PM   #5
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Eggshell over flat with no primer is certainly subject to "sheen flashing" at the cut-ins. With only one coat it's pretty much sure to happen.
Yeah I'll definitely have to see which rooms are one and which are two coats so I can check for this.
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Old 02-22-2016, 02:22 PM   #6
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The part I don't understand is that "it looked fine and they WERE quite happy." And, now this is showing up? Unusual for the lap marks to show up after a period of time. Seems unlikely to be a humidity problem. Sounds like this was there all along and they just didn't notice it. The spring and summer sunshine pouring light into the condo could have hidden the cut-line area. Now, with it being mostly cloudy, dreary winter weather, the cut-line problem can truly be seen.

Wonder if the painter(s) just did one coat on ALL the walls and SAID they did two. I can't think of many instances where i applied just one coat, always two unless it's an apartment and it's the same exact color.
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Old 02-22-2016, 02:24 PM   #7
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So, just clarifying. They lived in the place all spring, summer and fall and it all looked fine. Then they went away for three months over the winter and all of a sudden it didn't? But their relative did notice it at Christmas time?

My guess is that it looked like this right after the painting was done and they just didn't notice it until after they returned. If the relative noticed it at Christmas, I'm thinking it was always there.

Especially as Slinger noted above, they did a colour AND sheen change with only one coat. That's pretty much guaranteed what's going on with those walls. I don't care what paint they were using.

I've never had a problem with hat banding when doing two coats over whatever.
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Old 02-22-2016, 02:26 PM   #8
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Aaaand, Gymshu beat me to it by two minutes. Nice job Sir.
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Old 02-22-2016, 02:52 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gymschu View Post
The part I don't understand is that "it looked fine and they WERE quite happy." And, now this is showing up? Unusual for the lap marks to show up after a period of time. Seems unlikely to be a humidity problem. Sounds like this was there all along and they just didn't notice it. The spring and summer sunshine pouring light into the condo could have hidden the cut-line area. Now, with it being mostly cloudy, dreary winter weather, the cut-line problem can truly be seen.

Wonder if the painter(s) just did one coat on ALL the walls and SAID they did two. I can't think of many instances where i applied just one coat, always two unless it's an apartment and it's the same exact color.
The looking fine and then not is what has me stumped. That's why I want to consider everything before I bring that up. It could be a case of "new car syndrome", when everything is fine because you are just happy to be getting a new car. Then a month later the dash falls in your lap. I can't think of ever hearing of this, and I can't believe it is a paint quality issue. If it had been a cheap paint it would have been obvious right when it was done.

hat banding as I have always seen it happened as soon as the paint dried and was easy to diagnose. And the cure was almost always a second coat or at least a quick re-cut.

Fading maybe? Or a discoloration because the house was closed up and dark for so long? I doubt it unless it was some pretty bad paint. Especially with latex paint. They said the colors weren't very dark. Light pastels.
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Old 02-22-2016, 02:54 PM   #10
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We all have to play detective once in a while by piecing together facts of what we know, then filling in the blanks with our best educated guess. The more blanks to fill in, the less accurate our educated guess becomes. Without knowing the product & process, there are too many blanks to make a definitive conclusion. Could be the walls were never really sealed properly, but the builder's flat paint obscured this fact. Could be one of the helpers was paid to go back over all the cut-ins one last time and used old paint single gals that weren't ever boxed with the rest, or had to get a new batch of paint to re-coat all cut-ins. Maybe he used a dirty brush. Maybe the paint itself was crap and lacked the ability of sufficient sheen hold-out. Maybe they rolled only 1 coat and had to cut in 2. Lots of guesses, no real answers. You'd need a DFT gauge and knowledge of products & processed used to accurately pinpoint the problem.


I agree with Gymschu in that the problem was there all along.
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Old 02-22-2016, 03:22 PM   #11
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This seems to be more of a transparency problem than a sheen problem. Particularly if they went with reds, blues, or just about any dark color over an off white. Most likely a case of one cut in with a two roll job. Or, it could be a case of two cut ins and two roll jobs but with an inadequate roller sleeve. Causing the wall to appear lighter than the cut in.

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Old 02-22-2016, 03:33 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stelzerpaintinginc. View Post
We all have to play detective once in a while by piecing together facts of what we know, then filling in the blanks with our best educated guess. The more blanks to fill in, the less accurate our educated guess becomes. Without knowing the product & process, there are too many blanks to make a definitive conclusion. Could be the walls were never really sealed properly, but the builder's flat paint obscured this fact. Could be one of the helpers was paid to go back over all the cut-ins one last time and used old paint single gals that weren't ever boxed with the rest, or had to get a new batch of paint to re-coat all cut-ins. Maybe he used a dirty brush. Maybe the paint itself was crap and lacked the ability of sufficient sheen hold-out. Maybe they rolled only 1 coat and had to cut in 2. Lots of guesses, no real answers. You'd need a DFT gauge and knowledge of products & processed used to accurately pinpoint the problem.


I agree with Gymschu in that the problem was there all along.
I kinda think it has something to do with the original builders flat that was used, and the fact that it was probably not primed and was one coat. Probably did a quick cut in, sprayed and backrolled, and ended up with a much thicker coat on the roll then the cut, causing some kind of funky to go down on the cut in's.
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Old 02-22-2016, 03:35 PM   #13
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I may print this thread out to take with me! Good reference material, especially if I have to drop the "new car" bomb on them. That is it was like this all along and a few months out of the condo made it more noticeable to them when they came back.
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Old 02-22-2016, 03:37 PM   #14
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Just curious, but are they planning on having the thing repainted and buying the paint from you?
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Old 02-22-2016, 03:48 PM   #15
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I kinda think it has something to do with the original builders flat that was used, and the fact that it was probably not primed and was one coat. Probably did a quick cut in, sprayed and backrolled, and ended up with a much thicker coat on the roll then the cut, causing some kind of funky to go down on the cut in's.
This doesn't make sense does it? The only time I've ever seen someone cut and spray was along the top of the wall because the ceiling was already painted and they didn't want to mask it because they were worried the tape would pull the ceiling paint off.
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Old 02-22-2016, 03:50 PM   #16
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Just curious, but are they planning on having the thing repainted and buying the paint from you?
He said they were long time avid P&L users so he called me. If he called one of the painters I have no idea. I assume that means he is planning on buying from me if he re-paints! I figure it's worth checking for the guy.
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Old 02-22-2016, 07:27 PM   #17
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Quote:
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He said they were long time avid P&L users so he called me. If he called one of the painters I have no idea. I assume that means he is planning on buying from me if he re-paints! I figure it's worth checking for the guy.
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Old 02-23-2016, 03:41 AM   #18
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just cut n roll the 1st coat as normal. (cut the whole room, roll it) 2nd coat, cut 1 wall and roll it.. no pictureframe
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Old 02-23-2016, 12:02 PM   #19
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Thanks for the input everyone. Unfortunately my comments on this one are done. I went to the home, saw the problem, gave them the solution. One coat of drywall PRIMER and two coats of P&L Redseal. And a painter recommendation. They were such nice people I even offered them a good discount. I felt pretty bad for them.

Unfortunately the cause will not be discussed by me on this forum.
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Old 02-23-2016, 10:47 PM   #20
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Why a coat of primer? Two coats of new finish won't suffice?
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