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Old 01-18-2018, 09:39 PM   #1
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Over 10 years into my business and Ice given up on hiring painters. Ive kept 6 out of over 50. Im not even sold on 2 of them as they will never be leads. I need to fill thier spots to train upcoming leads. I know that your only shot is getting them early in the season or training now. Took long enough.

It has kept my business from growing for years. Ive realized that ive been hiring on skill and not character. Im going to start training all employees from scratch. Its the only option.

I have been researching how to hire for a week straight. It is a whole new world of opportunity. My best guy was trained by my company. Just sheer luck I found him. Not that i have created a job description, figured out the traits Im seeking, I need to learn how to spot these traits.

Instead of re-inventing the wheel I thought I would ask here : what is your hiring process?

I am interested in paying for cogative ability and other tests alike. I need to be sure as possible that Im training the right guy. There must be simple tests we can do to dissern a possible painter from a demolition guy.

Ive seen the tests, Im only interested if you know one that has worked for you. Maybe a run down on 3 step process that works for you? Any info in this area will be appreciated. A training program will follow. Thank you in advance for your time!!!! Going to be a busy year...
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Old 01-19-2018, 08:37 AM   #2
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Are you sure it's your workers, or are you the one that is creating a work environment that isn't conducive to growth?

Just the shear nature of the painting trade in the twenty first Century, lends itself to the following.

1. Entry level. No skills required.

2. No education. The ability to read and write preferred. (English not required)

3. Able to lift fifty pounds

4. Low wages

There's not much there to start with.

With that said, painting systems need to be made simple. Incentives like medical and vacation/sick leave are important to keep people. And safety and skill training should be offered to develop employees. Insecure employees will demonstrate pride as a defense mechanism. Give them ownership by trusting them to perform without constant over sight. The rest will be in my up coming book.
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Old 01-20-2018, 06:20 AM   #3
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Well im sure its a little of that and the other. Thank you for your input.

Thats your hiring process lol
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Old 01-20-2018, 11:33 AM   #4
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Well im sure its a little of that and the other. Thank you for your input.

Thats your hiring process lol
I was hoping you would have had more responses from business owners. I just wanted to provide a perspective from an employee.
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Old 01-20-2018, 12:41 PM   #5
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Despite the lack of quality in the painting labor pool, I do think that painting provides an excellent entry level position for ambitious young people who haven't had the opportunity to seek higher education, or land a decent paying job while trying to maintain a roof over their head. But there are a few character traits and conditions one has to possess and make in order to get started. For example;

1. Commitment- There has to be a commitment from the new hire that they will show up on time consistently and follow through with instructions. This will require the person to prioritize and adjust their lives accordingly in order to meet those obligations. How you make that contract with the employee is another story. Unions typically have MOU's (Memorandum of Understanding) as part of a labor agreement.

2. Humility- This is something that can't be mandated, but rather, built on trust. An employee that can follow through with their commitments, are typically showing a semblance of humility.

3, Work ethic- the more the employee develops their skill set, including understanding the dynamics of the business, the more they will want to meet their goals and demonstrate their professionalism.

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Old 01-24-2018, 01:34 PM   #6
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Capainter, thank you very much for the response. I have never tapped into the young ambitious individuals as you say and I'm going to be doing that now. I've been tapping into the leftovers on the bottom of the pan.

You said something that will probably stick with me forever and I think I'm going to integrate because I've heard it before. I will make them sign something to hold them accountable for the basic expectations. I believe this will allow me to retain them.

For others who search this and are looking to hire, just like anything else the effort you put into it is what you will get out of it.
I've spent a couple weeks research and character traits and hiring. I full heartedly believe I could study hiring for the rest of my life and only skim the surface.
I will not be hiring people with dramatic stories that are an open book right off the bat. I will be drug testing and background checking people as I know this would have prevented me from hiring some of the guys I have hired. Few weeks into working to find out they have a huge rap sheet and drug issues. Just think about all the ways you could have prevented hiring the people who were bad hires and integrate that into the hiring system. I have pages of questions to ask and I'm going to be hiring before I need the employee. If you wait till you need employee tomorrow its too late.
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Old 01-24-2018, 02:55 PM   #7
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CA got it correct. Clean, Sober, Reliable Transportation, pass background check, and most importantly good work ethic.
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Old 01-24-2018, 04:24 PM   #8
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The person I describe above, is me.

When I was booted from my home at eighteen, and then again in my early twenties, because I was a slacker taking advantage, I got serious about providing for myself.

This meant making my job the most important thing to me. Not my phony relationships with friends, family, and others, who enjoyed me better when I demonstrated reckless behavior.

In actuality, my first real boss, a painting contractor who I worked with for eleven years, was more like a surrogate father to me than a boss. He helped me develop skills, integrity, and ethics. I eventually made it a point to stand out over the other painters who acted like they knew everything, but came with so much baggage, drama, and spent most of the time trying to get over on someone. Namely, the boss. This helped me tremendously through the slow seasons and lean economies.

Sure, I have been described as a company man, kiss ass, brown nose, and untrustworthy to most of the idiots in the rank and file. But I never gave a crap. Even to this day. After all, I learned a long time ago about commitments and what's really important.
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Old 01-24-2018, 07:16 PM   #9
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Seems you already know what to do......hire on character. All my best employees met a few basic criteria at first interview. They showed up on time, looked me in the eye and had a good handshake. As basic as it sounds it has been reliable for 20 years. Of course it's not perfect, but what is. I am always looking to hire good people first and good painters second.
My longest employees have been ones that I've trained. Matter of fact just this year my lead left after 12 years. She just completed her degree and had given 6 months notice but it's going to be quite a change. She is a top notch painter and customers loved her.

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Old 01-24-2018, 09:26 PM   #10
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My view is multi sided.

Originally I had my own company and we probably had a total of maybe 20 guys that worked for us over the course of about 7 years.

Now I manage a large UNION shop.

However we do specialty work that requires non union guys around the world, of which I have to manage and perform. The kicker here is that the pool of eligibility is even smaller because they have to be of a certain Religion, and in very good standing.

That being said:

The union is nice because you can usually assume that if you hire a Journeyman, they are capable of most things (Like running a job.) however there are a lot of negatives too.

I have always held to the idea that you can teach anyone to paint. It just works better when they are a person you can trust will honestly give it their best. In the union, like everywhere you do everything you can to hang onto the good ones that come through. They are the ones you build your reputation and business off of.

It's the same outside of the union. The only thing the union has that is super beneficial is a training program with a clear path to Journeyman. A friend of mine is now managing a large non-union shop south of us, and he is constantly trying to figure out a how to apply a stepped/training system. (Start as an apprentice, work up to a Journeyman)

The hard part about the church work is that the pool is so small to pull from, we have to have new guys almost every time, because they move on into a normal career. We typically have myself and 1 or 2 other trained guys (Painters, Paper Hangers, Gilders) and a crew of four 20-25 year old's. The shutdowns for most of the church work is a 2 weeks. So there is a lot of crap to get done with no time to do it. You can usually tell on day one the guys who are lazy, the ones who work when driven but stand around when not explicitly told what to do, and those that are always doing anything to keep working because they just get it.

Usually the latter guys are able to learn things quickly. It is not uncommon to teach a new guy how to hang VWC or Gild on his first day and have him help through the entire job. The problem then is that we can't keep them busy consistently so they go get a degree and a career! It's kind of a mini example of what happens in the industry.

That being said, do everything you can to keep the good ones. You don't want to be in the position where you have do do everything even though you are paying guys to help. Ultimately they need to be able to manage a job so that you can be doing the business side of things. So figure out a path to get them there.

A couple of thoughts about this:

1) Give your new hires "homework." Give them 4-5 things they have to fill out, maybe research something, or write a paper. Make them think. If they turn it back in on day 2 then you know they are at least motivated. Easy way to gauge the level of the guys early on.

2) Consider who you are hiring. Stop hiring "Painters." Think of guys like Firemen, who have an on again off again schedule. They love an extra side gig, and they are usually hard workers. Also College kids can surprise you! yeah you have to deal with weird schedules, but it can be good to not have somebody full time either.

I had some more, but I am going home after a long day of work. I will follow up later if the thread stays active!

Good Luck!
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Old 01-24-2018, 10:28 PM   #11
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When hiring people I always try to look for people that are moving forward. What i mean by that is (if the person was a labor 10 years ago and he still an labor i do not need them) even if I am looking for a labor. I will take my chances with an inexperience person that shows motivation. I want people with ambition, that want to learn.

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Old 01-29-2018, 08:38 AM   #12
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.

The kicker here is that the pool of eligibility is even smaller because they have to be of a certain Religion, and in very good standing.
This is a huge hiring mistake. You are breaking a Federal Law if you are discriminating based on religion the painters that you hire. How are you getting around that?

We have 44 painters, 21 supervisors and 12 office/sales staff. We do quite a bit of hiring and have an ad on Craig's List, frequently.

Attitude trumps experience. However, a modicum of experience is important. Hiring can be very hit and miss. Some guys with great attitudes cant' learn a new skill and many guys with lots of skills don't want to be taught. Quite the quandary.

Background check is a must.
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Old 02-02-2018, 11:22 AM   #13
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This is a huge hiring mistake. You are breaking a Federal Law if you are discriminating based on religion the painters that you hire. How are you getting around that?
The discrimination thing is a little off because no one is saying I have to hire you if I can't work you. If I am hiring for a government job that requires a security clearance. Do I have to hire everybody that applies even if they don't have, or can't get the required clearance?

It's like working at the airport. We can hire anybody but not everybody can work there. If you can't pass a background check to work on the job, and I have no other work, I won't work you, or hire you. If you are Non-Union, I don't have to hire you.

Same with these religious buildings. You have to be a member in good standing to be allowed in the building. I can hire you, but if you can't come in and work, I am not going to work you. You can convert and stay active, so no one is saying you can't work there, but not everybody wants to do that. The Church has religious freedoms too, that are protected. It's not discrimination if you don't meet the requirements.

Thing is it's more of a hassle than anything else for a lot of reasons:
  • VERY limited number of skilled craftsmen that qualify.
  • Unrealistic Schedules (2 Week shutdowns every 6 months) with a TON of quality work that has to be completed.
  • Non-Consistent Work, usually with short notice.
  • Low wages - There is a sense of Religious Devotion that drives people to do this work under sub-par conditions.

I leave here tomorrow to drive to Colorado for a weeks worth of work. (Wallcovering and Painting) That was supposed to take 2 weeks, but got delayed and we have another project starting the following week in Bogota Colombia for 2 weeks. So I will be working 16-20 hour days, 6 days a week for the next 3 weeks to get everything done with Travel on my off days. I have spent the last 2 weeks working overtime trying to get caught up enough to be gone for those weeks and figure out getting supplies expedited to Columbia in time. Then I will return home to step back into my busy schedule with the added work of trying to catch back up. Point is, it's not something that a sane person would do. If it wasn't for the 'religious' aspect, it wouldn't be worth it.

Hoping this doesn't come across as venting, just trying to point out the realities of the situation.
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Old 02-02-2018, 12:07 PM   #14
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I'm not saying I have to hire everyone but I can't say I couldn't hire you because of one of the following reasons: race, ethnicity, sexual preference, medical history, marital status and religion to name a few. I can't even ask questions in an interview about the above.

We've worked in all manner of churches, mosques and synagogues and never had to be a member of the church and in "good standing" to boot.

That's ridiculous. That is discrimination when a church tells me I have to be a member to work on the church. Good luck with your hires.
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Old 02-02-2018, 04:46 PM   #15
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I'm not saying I have to hire everyone but I can't say I couldn't hire you because of one of the following reasons: race, ethnicity, sexual preference, medical history, marital status and religion to name a few. I can't even ask questions in an interview about the above.

We've worked in all manner of churches, mosques and synagogues and never had to be a member of the church and in "good standing" to boot.

That's ridiculous. That is discrimination when a church tells me I have to be a member to work on the church. Good luck with your hires.
It's an interesting concept though. I imagine they do some discriminating when hiring pastors etc?

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Old 02-07-2018, 01:34 AM   #16
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I am not a business owner. I am an employee. Here's what I would do:

Ask questions to gauge their motivation, ambition, moral standing, and attitude. Ask them point blank, what do you have to offer me? What are you hoping to gain from working for me?

I am one of the VERY hungry young people mentioned earlier in the thread. If a company is willing to help me reach my goal, I will do everything I can to help them reach theirs.

Find someone willing to grow with you. Build a relationship on mutual respect and benefit.

Nobody has time for the workers that don't give a ****.

**** them. Let 'em collect welfare. Let the big kids work.
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Old 11-25-2018, 04:40 AM   #17
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For anyone reading this in the future, I hired a few guys with no experience and they trained themselves onsite. It took about 6 mo. And they can paint an exterior on schedule. Still working on interiors as it has been exterior season since I hired them but, I’m guessing it will be the same thing.

I hired younge guys that were looking to learn a trade and had great character.

The only luck I have ever had was training from scratch. Anyone with expenience has too much baggage and pride. Plus drug issues.

I Solid hiring process is necessary. Know you’ll need to screen 50 people to find one worth training and then you’ll have to fire every other guy you hire or 2 out of 3 to find the guy that will be worthy of training for a year.

That’s 100-150 responses. It includes all of the initial emails responding to an ad you post that may never be contacted back or say “your over qualified” which will eliminate 9 out of 10 of them. I ask them to answer 5 questions and most don’t or don’t meet my requirements.

Followed by phone interview, then if I like them still I schedule an in person.

You can check on thier work history by calling, offer a job if you like them, background check and drug test.

That’s how I reduce 50-100 applicants to 1. Better be sure if your going to spend a year training...

I’m working on a training program to reduce the learning curve in half hopefully. Maybe I will learn to spot fast learners in combination with training.

I spent a lot of years coming to this conclusion. Young guys eager to get into the trades and make $20 an hr + is the key I think. Experienced applicants are a short term fix.

Feel free to expand on this
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Old 11-25-2018, 07:18 AM   #18
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What are your five questions?

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Old 11-25-2018, 01:53 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kentdalimp View Post
The discrimination thing is a little off because no one is saying I have to hire you if I can't work you. If I am hiring for a government job that requires a security clearance. Do I have to hire everybody that applies even if they don't have, or can't get the required clearance?

It's like working at the airport. We can hire anybody but not everybody can work there. If you can't pass a background check to work on the job, and I have no other work, I won't work you, or hire you. If you are Non-Union, I don't have to hire you.

Same with these religious buildings. You have to be a member in good standing to be allowed in the building. I can hire you, but if you can't come in and work, I am not going to work you. You can convert and stay active, so no one is saying you can't work there, but not everybody wants to do that. The Church has religious freedoms too, that are protected. It's not discrimination if you don't meet the requirements.

Thing is it's more of a hassle than anything else for a lot of reasons:
  • VERY limited number of skilled craftsmen that qualify.
  • Unrealistic Schedules (2 Week shutdowns every 6 months) with a TON of quality work that has to be completed.
  • Non-Consistent Work, usually with short notice.
  • Low wages - There is a sense of Religious Devotion that drives people to do this work under sub-par conditions.

I leave here tomorrow to drive to Colorado for a weeks worth of work. (Wallcovering and Painting) That was supposed to take 2 weeks, but got delayed and we have another project starting the following week in Bogota Colombia for 2 weeks. So I will be working 16-20 hour days, 6 days a week for the next 3 weeks to get everything done with Travel on my off days. I have spent the last 2 weeks working overtime trying to get caught up enough to be gone for those weeks and figure out getting supplies expedited to Columbia in time. Then I will return home to step back into my busy schedule with the added work of trying to catch back up. Point is, it's not something that a sane person would do. If it wasn't for the 'religious' aspect, it wouldn't be worth it.

Hoping this doesn't come across as venting, just trying to point out the realities of the situation.
You must be Mormon. I've worked for a few companies and painted churches big and small and not a one required us to be members. I'm assuming you get around discrimination by never having open bids or open hiring.
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Old 11-25-2018, 05:19 PM   #20
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1. What company do you currently work for ( I state that they must have a job and be looking for more, most say they are layed off but, I did get a guy from another trade last year who wanted the ability to move up)

2. What are you looking for in a new job

3. Tell me about yourself

4. What are bad experiences with past employers and what you expect from your employer

5. List past work experience


Even when people do answer these questions I see lots of red flags in them
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