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Old 01-30-2010, 05:18 PM   #21
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My guess would be similar to Rcons theory.

The op doesnt say how much time was allowed between the soapy water scrub down and the bin application. I do know that July in Vermont was pretty humid with a ton of rain. High air moisture content. If there were not a couple of days of dry time with lots of fan circulation, and then the bin was way overapplied, which it sound like it was, that would be cause for the failure. Why didnt it happen on the ceilings? They didnt get as wet during the dousing process, and they probably didnt get the same over application of bin that the walls got. They look textured in the pics, but its hard to tell, that might be part of the difference as well.

The only other explanation is that someone sabotaged the California with a healthy dose of Behr crackle finish.



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Old 01-30-2010, 05:24 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstVTOdyssey View Post
I'm all ears! What else works well as both a stain and odor block?
Best way to get rid of the smell is to remove the smell by cleaning or getting rid of the carpet/curtains. If it is a hardwood floor maybe a little trickier.
The odor from cat urine can be improved by dosing the floor where they pee'd with an enzyme. The cats are not necessarily peeing on the walls but on the floor.
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Old 01-30-2010, 06:00 PM   #23
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You said that the failing paint was going past the BIN, so you some kind of adhesion failure with the BIN.
There will not be an esy fix to this unless you can pass it off as a intended alligator finish. Without doing that you will have to go through all the steps I and others mentioned to fix. You could try gardz to fill in the cracks but after you start sanding and scraping i think you will see it needs to be skimmed.



Just out of curiosity I noticed in your profile that you heard of this site through a Behr rep? A Behr rep recommened this site?

Is this your property that you have been maintaining or a property that you are contracted to maintain?
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Old 01-30-2010, 06:04 PM   #24
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Good question Sean. Seems to be a fly in the woodpile on this.

Also, bin in its shellac base is extremely brittle and susceptible to movement and moisture, which is why it doesnt really work on ext trim know killing.



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Old 01-30-2010, 06:11 PM   #25
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Workaholic View Post
You said that the failing paint was going past the BIN, so you some kind of adhesion failure with the BIN.
There will not be an esy fix to this unless you can pass it off as a intended alligator finish. Without doing that you will have to go through all the steps I and others mentioned to fix. You could try gardz to fill in the cracks but after you start sanding and scraping i think you will see it needs to be skimmed.


Just out of curiosity I noticed in your profile that you heard of this site through a Behr rep? A Behr rep recommened this site?

Is this your property that you have been maintaining or a property that you are contracted to maintain?
Looks like I'll follow the advice and do a skim coat. It's going to suck, but oh well, at least the issue will be corrected (I hope!) I wish I could pass it off as intentional, but since it's a pre-1978 building, there are lead paint laws so it needs to be corrected.

Yep, a Behr rep sent me here. I've been talking w/as many reps as I can find to try to get some info, and no one had ever seen anything like this. I ran into him on Friday and he suggested that I come here since there's such a large knowledge base. Even with the Behr bashing that goes on from time to time, he said that it was still a good site with tons of great info.

This is a property that we purchased a couple of years ago and have been slowly getting rid of the bad tenants, renovating the apartments and getting good folks in, as well as fixing many, many, many years of neglect and deferred maintenance. We own a couple buildings, and I manage several for other people as well.

Evan

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Old 01-30-2010, 06:15 PM   #26
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You said the place stunk pretty bad. Did it just smell like cat or were there other smells as well?

Were they cooking meth in the unit?

Definitely sounds like too much paint was applied to quickly. It's much easier to hold the gun facing the wall than the ceiling...
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Old 01-30-2010, 06:20 PM   #27
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But...
I have beat the snot out of BIN over so many UnSubs in Apt and "Bacon-For-Every-Meal-Kitchen" Re-paints for so many years, I can't see it being a "BIN Issue"
I suppose if the "cleaning" prep left a heavy residue, or was still way wet, it's possible the BIN reacted like that
(That'd be a prep issue rather than a product issue)

If you can peal off on of those "alligator scales" and see the previous coating, well then yeah the BIN failed
And I'd say it was either or both of the above that was the culprit rather than the product

Remember, shellac (in itself) does not have the temp or humidity requirements of most other coatings or primers (it can be used in much colder temps and in much higher humidity than most anything else)

However, BIN (like all others) reaches it's limits on "wet" substrates
If the substrate was in fact still too wet (damp) to coat (and without a moisture meter reading we may never know really), yes I'd (actually) expect this to happen (if you can peal off on of those "alligator scales" and see the previous coating)

Regardless: if what's left is firmly adhering, then the fix would be a "peel stop" and a skim coat and a prime, then top coats
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Old 01-30-2010, 06:26 PM   #28
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With all due respect, I am not sure I would send Odyssey down the skimming road just yet. If adhesion is compromised, the moisture in the mud is going to get behind the current coating (through the cracks) and the weight of the mud is going to start pulling it off the wall. Bigger, uglier mess. Think in terms of like when you apply a heavy mil ext film over loose, cracked, or peeling paint. I dont know that I would go there until you exactly know where in the substrate the failure lies.



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Old 01-30-2010, 06:31 PM   #29
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With all due respect, I am not sure I would send Odyssey down the skimming road just yet. If adhesion is compromised, the moisture in the mud is going to get behind the current coating (through the cracks) and the weight of the mud is going to start pulling it off the wall. Bigger, uglier mess. Think in terms of like when you apply a heavy mil ext film over loose, cracked, or peeling paint. I dont know that I would go there until you exactly know where in the substrate the failure lies.
That is why I recommended sanding and scraping all the failing product, and then priming prior to the skim.


Out of how many rooms did this problem occur Odyssey? Not all of them correct?

Metro made a point and that is if they were cooking meth in the place the residue on the walls could of caused the failure. Of course the lids would of probably failed then as well.
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Old 01-30-2010, 06:34 PM   #30
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[quote=Workaholic;112470]That is why I recommended sanding and scraping all the failing product, and then priming prior to the skim.



And this is usually the point in the program where it would be prudent to suggest that the project is probably escalating out of the realm of the property manager and into the realm of the professional painter. (and no, I am not interested!) However, Matts Painting and Drywall here in VT could probably end this nightmare pretty quick.



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Old 01-30-2010, 07:23 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vermontpainter;
With all due respect, I am not sure I would send Odyssey down the skimming road just yet...I dont know that I would go there until you exactly know where in the substrate the failure lies.
Ayuh...
Truly, this is a (yet another) "Must Know Why" before a (real/true) "Fix" can be suggested with confidence
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Old 01-30-2010, 08:21 PM   #32
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yes there would be some typeof priming first prior to any skimming for sure... That's a given unless you want more problems..
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Old 01-30-2010, 08:29 PM   #33
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Wow I fell sorry for you. Maybe you could just put some glaze on it and call it a fuax finish. It looks like you painted over hide glue! I have never seen anything this bad and I hope I never do in person. Did you clean the cealings just like the walls? Maybe it was something you cleaned the walls with that caused the primer to fail.
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Old 01-30-2010, 09:17 PM   #34
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Workaholic View Post
That is why I recommended sanding and scraping all the failing product, and then priming prior to the skim.


Out of how many rooms did this problem occur Odyssey? Not all of them correct?

Metro made a point and that is if they were cooking meth in the place the residue on the walls could of caused the failure. Of course the lids would of probably failed then as well.

It occurred in the kitchen, a bedroom, bathroom, and a tiny hallway, so 3 1/2 rooms. I have also just started to see it beginning in the living room as well.

To be honest, I wouldn't put it past the previous tenant to try cooking meth, but I don't think she was smart enough to do it successfully, and if she had tried, I'd be surprised that she didn't blow up the building.

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Ayuh...
Truly, this is a (yet another) "Must Know Why" before a (real/true) "Fix" can be suggested with confidence
Exactly. The last thing that I want to do is try a fix, only to have it get worse.
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Old 01-30-2010, 09:25 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstVTOdyssey View Post
It occurred in the kitchen, a bedroom, bathroom, and a tiny hallway, so 3 1/2 rooms. I have also just started to see it beginning in the living room as well.

To be honest, I wouldn't put it past the previous tenant to try cooking meth, but I don't think she was smart enough to do it successfully, and if she had tried, I'd be surprised that she didn't blow up the building.



Exactly. The last thing that I want to do is try a fix, only to have it get worse.
Intresting, if it is just starting in another room then as you mentioned earlier it might not be done cracking.


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(and no, I am not interested!) However, Matts Painting and Drywall here in VT could probably end this nightmare pretty quick.
Might be in your best interest to give a call to a seasoned professional to look at it first hand and give you some options to repair. Sometimes it's easier to pay someone with more experience to take care of this kind of stuff.
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Old 01-30-2010, 09:45 PM   #36
 
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Thanks for all of the input, keep it coming!

To answer some of the questions:

I cleaned some parts of the walls, but not all. All areas that were cleaned were also rinsed with water. At first I thought that it could have been as a result of leaving residue, or not getting rid of something that was left on the walls by the tenant, but the cracking is just as bad in areas that were cleaned as they were in areas that weren't.

The BIN was put on just as "thick" on the walls as the ceilings.

There were smells other than cat urine and feces, but I couldn't identify them. I had been told by several of the other tenants that she was smoking crack, but I can not confirm it. She burned lots of candles and incense to hide the pot smell.

The cracking paint took several months to appear, and is steadily getting worse. Areas that were hairline cracks are now much larger and deeper, and will catch a fingernail if run across it. I tried peeling it in several areas, and it wouldn't come off, so the adhesion appears to be decent in most spots, but it is coming off in a few places. I noticed a stress crack on a wall in the living room, and another one on the underside of an arched doorway. There obviously is still a little bit of movement in the building, but these places are on the opposite side of where the paint cracking is occurring.

I have had 2 drywaller/painters take a look, as well as the California paint rep, and my supplier, and none seem to have any idea why the BIN did not adhere. They all suggested priming and then re-painting, which as I found out did not fix the problem. I'll make some phone calls and get someone else out there to take a look.

Evan
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Old 01-30-2010, 09:52 PM   #37
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You must be dealing with Able?



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Old 01-30-2010, 09:54 PM   #38
 
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You are correct.
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Old 01-30-2010, 09:56 PM   #39
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Looks like bad paint to me.
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Old 01-31-2010, 08:22 AM   #40
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My take is that maybe the alcohol in the BIN melted a cheaper/older substrate possiblly an old vinyl paint. The question whether it is plaster or drywall is important if you wet the surface a bunch when cleaning then sealed it to quickly but also if the walls are not insulated properly this is also suspect due to the dry heat. The only way to remedy is to install 1/4 in. sheetrock over all the walls, there is no way floating is going to work.

By the way this alligator effect is achieved in decorative painting with animal hide glue where you put glue over a base coat and then apply a coat of paint before the glue dries. It is funny but I really dig this look.
This may be the problem. I started a job last week where the lady wanted a new Valspar 2 part epoxy on the walls in her garage for extra durability. I asked my SW manager about that and he said the coating may be too "hot" for the previous coating. I of course talked her out of that mess but this may be your problem. The previous coat may have been something that couldnt take the shellac coating but could of took a reg. oil base primer. Its stories like this that keep me away from buying rental property, Good Luck
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