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Old 04-08-2015, 07:49 AM   #21
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youre right thats pretty bad... The problem is, I know all the technical terms in German, sometimes I just improvise an English word to get my point across

I assure you, in other matters I am still capable of speaking my native language
I've seen much worse from native "English" speakers. From what little German I know, that is the way the word would be constructed.

Native English speakers sometimes forget that English is a mix of several different languages and as such, doesn't follow the rules that most European languages follow. That makes it a very difficult language to learn for some people.

For example if you speak Spanish, you could get by pretty easily in Italy, France, and Romania. The structure is the same and most words are very close.

You wouldn't believe how many times I have mistaken "lag bolts" for "light bulbs".
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Old 04-08-2015, 09:06 AM   #22
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youre right thats pretty bad... The problem is, I know all the technical terms in German, sometimes I just improvise an English word to get my point across

I assure you, in other matters I am still capable of speaking my native language

Not sure the issue is Language.
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Old 04-08-2015, 09:10 AM   #23
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that is to say?
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Old 04-08-2015, 10:07 AM   #24
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that is to say?

That your English seems to be great. No problem understanding you at all.
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Old 04-08-2015, 10:18 AM   #25
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Very diplomatic.

To return to the question though, reducing absorption is the main purpose of priming drywall, at least over here.
That is also why it has to be so thin and isnt supposed to be mixed with paint.

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Old 04-08-2015, 11:04 AM   #26
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Very diplomatic.

To return to the question though, reducing absorption is the main purpose of priming drywall, at least over here.
That is also why it has to be so thin and isnt supposed to be mixed with paint.
I would also add, that primers specifically designed for a particular substrate, are formulated to be compatible with those substrates in terms of pH, penetration, and providing a bonding surface for subsequent finish coats.

However, Americans have adopted the primer/finish products, recommended by leading manufacturers, because they are trusted more than the standard practices provided by the industry's apprenticeship schools, nationally recognized testing labs, and drywall manufacturers.

I don't know about Europe, but here in the States, the competion to cut down on the painting process time, is fierce. And since painting is looked upon as merely cosmetic, in most cases, owners will gladly pay the cheapest painting contractor rather than someone who is more expensive but conscientious about applying best painting practices.

I also believe that many painting contractors price themselves out of jobs because they overestimate their capabilities, while demanding a wage that is typically reserved for a more knowledge and critical based trade, like plumbing or electrical for example.

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Old 04-08-2015, 11:30 AM   #27
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However, Americans have adopted the primer/finish products, recommended by leading manufacturers, because they are trusted more than the standard practices provided by the industry's apprenticeship schools, nationally recognized testing labs, and drywall manufacturers.
Man you've got a real axe to grind here :P
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Old 04-08-2015, 11:49 AM   #28
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I would also add, that primers specifically designed for a particular substrate, are formulated to be compatible with those substrates in terms of pH, penetration, and providing a bonding surface for subsequent finish coats.

However, Americans have adopted the primer/finish products, recommended by leading manufacturers, because they are trusted more than the standard practices provided by the industry's apprenticeship schools, nationally recognized testing labs, and drywall manufacturers.

I don't know about Europe, but here in the States, the competion to cut down on the painting process time, is fierce. And since painting is looked upon as merely cosmetic, in most cases, owners will gladly pay the cheapest painting contractor rather than someone who is more expensive but conscientious about applying best painting practices.

I also believe that many painting contractors price themselves out of jobs because they overestimate their capabilities, while demanding a wage that is typically reserved for a more knowledge and critical based trade, like plumbing or electrical for example.
Don't forget the properly trained store employees! All twenty of us!
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Old 04-08-2015, 12:36 PM   #29
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Man you've got a real axe to grind here :P
Not really, since I'm not competing with anyone Its just a great opportunity to work on my typing and communication skills while I have a little down time at the office. That's what I really enjoy about PT!

But there does seem to be this sort of make it up as you go in the painting industry. And that bothers me a little. Its not that a number of primer finishes can't look and, in many cases, perform like a specific primer and a specific finish. Its the paint manufacturers who take advantage of the loose standards in the industry, and make product claims as a self interested party rather than as an unbiased third party.

What ends up happening is, painters on the ground go to paint forums and state how wonderful a particular self priming product had covered in only two coats over bare drywall, and it looked as good, if not better, than if they had used a primer. Then they'll go on to say how primers are useless and just a revenue generating ploy and so on and so forth.

So me, the little naive painter visiting PT says "Well holy moly Martha! Old Billy Bob Blow and Go, on Paint Talk, doesn't use primer. So why the hell am I?!"
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Old 04-08-2015, 01:24 PM   #30
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Not really, since I'm not competing with anyone Its just a great opportunity to work on my typing and communication skills while I have a little down time at the office. That's what I really enjoy about PT!

But there does seem to be this sort of make it up as you go in the painting industry. And that bothers me a little. Its not that a number of primer finishes can't look and, in many cases, perform like a specific primer and a specific finish. Its the paint manufacturers who take advantage of the loose standards in the industry, and make product claims as a self interested party rather than as an unbiased third party.

What ends up happening is, painters on the ground go to paint forums and state how wonderful a particular self priming product had covered in only two coats over bare drywall, and it looked as good, if not better, than if they had used a primer. Then they'll go on to say how primers are useless and just a revenue generating ploy and so on and so forth.

So me, the little naive painter visiting PT says "Well holy moly Martha! Old Billy Bob Blow and Go, on Paint Talk, doesn't use primer. So why the hell am I?!"
I can't believe the looks people give me when I suggest using a primer. You would think I am reaching in their pockets for their money. Yet at least once a week I have someone who has something bleeding through two coats of P&P. Crazy, just crazy. No one listens to the people with experience anymore. They can't think beyond their tv and I-pad screens.
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Old 04-08-2015, 02:28 PM   #31
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Not really, since I'm not competing with anyone Its just a great opportunity to work on my typing and communication skills while I have a little down time at the office. That's what I really enjoy about PT!

But there does seem to be this sort of make it up as you go in the painting industry. And that bothers me a little. Its not that a number of primer finishes can't look and, in many cases, perform like a specific primer and a specific finish. Its the paint manufacturers who take advantage of the loose standards in the industry, and make product claims as a self interested party rather than as an unbiased third party.

What ends up happening is, painters on the ground go to paint forums and state how wonderful a particular self priming product had covered in only two coats over bare drywall, and it looked as good, if not better, than if they had used a primer. Then they'll go on to say how primers are useless and just a revenue generating ploy and so on and so forth.

So me, the little naive painter visiting PT says "Well holy moly Martha! Old Billy Bob Blow and Go, on Paint Talk, doesn't use primer. So why the hell am I?!"
Well then, try and remember all of us when you receive the Pulitzer Prize for Literature. I know you can do it!
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Old 04-08-2015, 02:34 PM   #32
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Not really, since I'm not competing with anyone Its just a great opportunity to work on my typing and communication skills while I have a little down time at the office. That's what I really enjoy about PT!

But there does seem to be this sort of make it up as you go in the painting industry. And that bothers me a little. Its not that a number of primer finishes can't look and, in many cases, perform like a specific primer and a specific finish. Its the paint manufacturers who take advantage of the loose standards in the industry, and make product claims as a self interested party rather than as an unbiased third party.

What ends up happening is, painters on the ground go to paint forums and state how wonderful a particular self priming product had covered in only two coats over bare drywall, and it looked as good, if not better, than if they had used a primer. Then they'll go on to say how primers are useless and just a revenue generating ploy and so on and so forth.

So me, the little naive painter visiting PT says "Well holy moly Martha! Old Billy Bob Blow and Go, on Paint Talk, doesn't use primer. So why the hell am I?!"
Doesn't take two people to grind an axe :P

And I don't mean that in a rude way, it just seems like you jump on that every time it comes up.

And, generally speaking, I totally agree with you on the paint and primer thing, but I feel that it's worthwhile to play a bit of devil's advocate here:

Pretend you're a paint company. Your goals are to make money, and your particular strategy for that is to save your customers time and/or money as well. You think "what can we do to save our customers time, thus making us money?" You decide, "we'll make a self-priming paint!" Less product to keep track of, less procedures, possibly one less coat. So then you spend a bunch of time and money on R&D for that product. You release it... only to have some guy on Paint Talk shoot it down because it's not industry standard. You know the product isn't industry standard- you made it to work differently, better, than industry standard! The whole point of the product was to improve upon the current system, to do it better!

Now this is clearly giving the paint manufacturer's too much credit; I know for a fact that some formulas didn't change at all when "Paint and Primer" was slapped on the label.

However, I just have a bit of an issue with instantly writing off anything that isn't "industry standard" purely for the fact that it isn't industry standard. If you want to argue the fact that paint and primer in one doesn't work or is a sham, I'm 100% behind you on that, but arguing that it should be discounted because it's not industry standard I'm not with you on.

The industry is going to change, to innovate. We've all seen it happening in our lifetimes with the change from oil to water based paints. That's going to keep happening. All I ask is that you judge things on their merits rather than discount new ideas because of standards.
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Old 04-08-2015, 03:19 PM   #33
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Oh, I'm definately not discounting it as a viable product. lets just not claim it can now take the place of substrate specific primers because a respected manufacturer of a primer finish product, with an interest in generating revenue, says so. And for the record, I have and will probably continue using, DTM's and primer finishes over surfaces that better painting practices would require a specific or recommended primer.

There are many building products out there that perform specific tasks while eliminating the extra labor required for more conventional means . For example, most jurisdictions in California require conventional drain venting for an island sink in a kitchen. Typically, this requires routing ABS piping under crawl spaces and up between a wall cavity before exiting through the roof. There's a lot of work involved in that. However, there is a mechanical venting device that is sold at just about any Big Box store that can be attached right under the sink on the drain line. When someone flushes a toilet down stream, the device opens, preventing the P-trap water in the kitchen sink from evacuating due to syphoning. And everyone knows you need to maintain water in the P-Trap to prevent sewage gas from entering the house.

The point is, this device eliminates a butt load of work and performs fantastically! However, most jurisdictions, at least mine, will not allow it in a permitted remodeling project because it is not considered a standard practice in the plumbing industry because open vents have been proven to perform without fail, and therefore, is considered a best practice.
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Old 04-08-2015, 03:30 PM   #34
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Anybody that might be doing mostly repaints then ery so often they get some new rock and they insist on putting on a whole prime coat, just try finish/.finish next time. Give yourself a bone. I feel bad for ya is all. U are wasting a coat.
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Old 04-08-2015, 04:29 PM   #35
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Anybody that might be doing mostly repaints then ery so often they get some new rock and they insist on putting on a whole prime coat, just try finish/.finish next time. Give yourself a bone. I feel bad for ya is all. U are wasting a coat.

I probably told this story before but I'll tell it again. When I was about 25 I was a hot shot fireman for my dad. We did regular custom home work for a reputable builder on T&M.

This one job the builder was a little behind budget wise and asked my dad to skip the prime coat on the drywall to save a few bucks. Guess someone told him it wasn't necessary. Dad agreed and when he told me the plan I was furious. "I'm not lowering my standards for this broke a$$ builder!", etc., etc..

I finally cooled off and just did it. Was an eggshell finish and we had some real high walls with big windows at the end. I went ahead and painted them with the eggshell, smugly assured they would look like crap and I could blame him for cutting the primer.

Two coats later the walls looked great. Was going behind an ace drywall team, so no fuzzed paper and good joints. I was actually irritated at being wrong, but shrugged it off as a fluke and went back to priming new rock for years after that.

This is a house I do regular maintenance on to this day. Hasn't been painted since and still looks great (vacation home so little traffic).
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Old 04-08-2015, 04:39 PM   #36
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I'm still fairly torn on the issue, though I do agree with CA that it'd be awful nice to have a third party group actually testing this kinda thing.
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Old 04-08-2015, 04:49 PM   #37
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Doesn't take two people to grind an axe :P

And I don't mean that in a rude way, it just seems like you jump on that every time it comes up.

And, generally speaking, I totally agree with you on the paint and primer thing, but I feel that it's worthwhile to play a bit of devil's advocate here:

Pretend you're a paint company. Your goals are to make money, and your particular strategy for that is to save your customers time and/or money as well. You think "what can we do to save our customers time, thus making us money?" You decide, "we'll make a self-priming paint!" Less product to keep track of, less procedures, possibly one less coat. So then you spend a bunch of time and money on R&D for that product. You release it... only to have some guy on Paint Talk shoot it down because it's not industry standard. You know the product isn't industry standard- you made it to work differently, better, than industry standard! The whole point of the product was to improve upon the current system, to do it better!

Now this is clearly giving the paint manufacturer's too much credit; I know for a fact that some formulas didn't change at all when "Paint and Primer" was slapped on the label.

However, I just have a bit of an issue with instantly writing off anything that isn't "industry standard" purely for the fact that it isn't industry standard. If you want to argue the fact that paint and primer in one doesn't work or is a sham, I'm 100% behind you on that, but arguing that it should be discounted because it's not industry standard I'm not with you on.

The industry is going to change, to innovate. We've all seen it happening in our lifetimes with the change from oil to water based paints. That's going to keep happening. All I ask is that you judge things on their merits rather than discount new ideas because of standards.
Some people would still be mixing white lead and linseed oil if they could!
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Old 04-08-2015, 04:56 PM   #38
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see what I started.
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Old 04-08-2015, 05:01 PM   #39
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Always blame PACman when things go Behr-shaped.
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Old 04-08-2015, 06:58 PM   #40
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I'm still fairly torn on the issue, though I do agree with CA that it'd be awful nice to have a third party group actually testing this kinda thing.
I welcome the day when it becomes common place for a building engineer or architect to spec a primer/finish product over bare drywall! For me, its a no brainer to take the path of least resistance. I just want to make certain that all the liability falls on someone elses shoulders if a time requires me to present documentation demonstrating I applied a coating according to the specifications, and in accordance with standards that are in line with industry best practices.

And frankly, my choice would be Benjamin Moore.
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