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Old 03-26-2017, 11:44 PM   #1
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Default Problem with BM Waterborne Ceiling paint 508

I have run into an issue with BM Wateborne Ceiling paint. It was stripping/shadow boxing. It is a combination of s drywall and a plaster Ceiling. First I applied Sureseal primer on the ceiling, then first coat of Ceiling paint. After the first coat dried it showed stripping/shadow boxing. I applied a second coat, and it still was stripping and shadow boxing.

I thought it was possibly a defective batch as it was very difficult to to roll on. I went and purchased two gallons from a different batch. Applied a now third coat still same result. Finally I added BM extender into the paint. The result was much better this time. However I am still seeing the waves and drywall seams on the Ceiling.

Would Ultra Spec flat hide better. I've only used Ultra Spec flat once and that was when it was first released, however the fact the Ceiling was 20 feet high didn't hurt either. The Ceiling in question is 9 feet high.

Any insight in regard to the hide being better or worse when comparing Waterborne Ceiling paint and Ultrspec is greatly appreciated.
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:04 AM   #2
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Just used their ceiling paint and had no issues whatsoever. Painted several existing ceilings, with no visible seams or flaws though. I can't stand a paint that shadow boxes though, trying to look all tough....
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:32 AM   #3
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Never have had any problems with 508 except excessive spatter once. I'm always tempted to leave it at one coat when the specs say two. Hide seems better to me than US500 but generally I have good luck in that dept with US500 too.

Maybe your Sure Seal didn't seal? Even if it didn't, by the third coat of ceiling paint I'd think you'd be good. Are you putting it on heavy enough?
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:37 AM   #4
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Just used their ceiling paint and had no issues whatsoever. Painted several existing ceilings, with no visible seams or flaws though. I can't stand a paint that shadow boxes though, trying to look all tough....


I forgot to mention it was tinted to match a SW color. I've been using the BM waterborne for a couple of years I used to use Regal.
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:40 AM   #5
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Never have had any problems with 508 except excessive spatter once. I'm always tempted to leave it at one coat when the specs say two. Hide seems better to me than US500 but generally I have good luck in that dept with US500 too.

Maybe your Sure Seal didn't seal? Even if it didn't, by the third coat of ceiling paint I'd think you'd be good. Are you putting it on heavy enough?


I believe it was heavy enough, I've never had this type of problem before. It is only on this Ceiling. The other Ceiling was primer and one coat, and it's looks great. I should say I've been in the trade since 1987. I started when I was in middle school weekends, breaks and vacations lol
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Old 03-27-2017, 09:54 AM   #6
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If it is a bad drywall job and harsh lighting, no paint can fix that.
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Old 03-27-2017, 09:55 AM   #7
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If it is a bad drywall job and harsh lighting, no paint can fix that.


That's what I was trying to explain, but....
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Old 03-27-2017, 11:13 AM   #8
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OK...well a lot of info missing from your first post. Like you did another ceiling same job same products and it was fine. It also sounded like you were having a problem with hide and getting lap marks. Now it just sounds like you want the paint to hide defects in the ceiling. I think we all wish there was a paint that covered up all flaws to ceilings and walls. Would make the prep side (75% of where our time is spent) a breeze!
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Old 03-27-2017, 11:49 AM   #9
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OK...well a lot of info missing from your first post. Like you did another ceiling same job same products and it was fine. It also sounded like you were having a problem with hide and getting lap marks. Now it just sounds like you want the paint to hide defects in the ceiling. I think we all wish there was a paint that covered up all flaws to ceilings and walls. Would make the prep side (75% of where our time is spent) a breeze!


I thought my op was tooo long. To address your point of doing another ceiling. Yes I did another Ceiling in the home same product better results, however it was a different batch number, that is why I purchased two gallons from a different fresher batch.

I am completely aware that the Ceiling is flawed, even pointed it out to the client during walk through for the estimate, and during the actual job.

I used to use Regal Wallsatin for my ceilings but once they impruined it. I stopped. LoL

I created my original post to see if there were any suggestions on the forum.
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Old 03-27-2017, 01:03 PM   #10
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I do not think paint will solve the problem if I am understanding it correctly. Maybe have a drywaller do a level 5 finish on the ceiling and then paint it.

My guess is that it is not worth the cost and the mess to go to such measures. Unless the customer is willing to pay for more work, I would leave well enough alone. Sometimes bad lighting angles cannot be overcome no matter what you do. I once had a ceiling that we did like 5 times trying to get it to look better. It was a large basement ceiling with no breaks and a square shape (no short direction to help keep a wet edge). As you walked down the stairs, you see the ceiling at eye level looking towards windows and a slider. No matter what we did, I could not get that ceiling to look right. Homeowner never complained, but I do not think any of the extra coats made a difference.
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Old 03-27-2017, 01:45 PM   #11
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Default Sealing the surface

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Originally Posted by Mml665 View Post
I have run into an issue with BM Wateborne Ceiling paint. It was stripping/shadow boxing. It is a combination of s drywall and a plaster Ceiling. First I applied Sureseal primer on the ceiling, then first coat of Ceiling paint. After the first coat dried it showed stripping/shadow boxing. I applied a second coat, and it still was stripping and shadow boxing.

I thought it was possibly a defective batch as it was very difficult to to roll on. I went and purchased two gallons from a different batch. Applied a now third coat still same result. Finally I added BM extender into the paint. The result was much better this time. However I am still seeing the waves and drywall seams on the Ceiling.

Would Ultra Spec flat hide better. I've only used Ultra Spec flat once and that was when it was first released, however the fact the Ceiling was 20 feet high didn't hurt either. The Ceiling in question is 9 feet high.

Any insight in regard to the hide being better or worse when comparing Waterborne Ceiling paint and Ultrspec is greatly appreciated.
Without knowing more, I would say that the Sure Seal did not seal the surface and the water in the paint got sucked up into the ceiling as you were rolling it on, thus causing the unevenness of the 1st and 2nd coats.

Have you ever used Gardz? It is a sealer that dries clear, but does not allow any of the water in the paint to be sucked up into the surface, allowing it to be worked and rolled out evenly, then causing it to dry slowly as all the water in the paint stays in the paint until it evaporates into the room and not get sucked up into the drywall or plaster.

You basically did an experiment to see if Sure Seal would seal the surface of the ceiling. Sounds to me like it didn't. I have done a lot of experiments along the way. Sometimes they are worth doing and sometimes not.

Using Gardz can help you do less experiments and help you make sure you get the job done, even if you have to take what you think is an extra step. As it turned out, you did have take an extra step by having to put a 3rd coat on. The fact that using BM extender gave you better results tells me that the ceiling was sucking the water out of the paint on your first two coats and that the extender gave you just barely a fighting chance.

Perhaps the fact that the ceiling paint was tinted for this particular room might have been a factor in the striping (lap marks?) and shadow boxing (hat banding?), but it also may be that this particular ceiling was absorbing more water out of the paint than the other ceiling you did.

If you have a concern that a surface is so dry that it will suck the water out of the paint, try using Gardz on a job where you think that might be a problem. My guess is that as you start rolling the paint over the Gardz, you will think that you have died and gone to painters' heaven and that you will wish that every ceiling or wall you roll should be this easy to do.

s far as BM Waterborne having a problem, the only problem I have had with it is that it is difficult, at least for me, to spread the paint out and creat an even coat. In this regard, it is one of my least favorite ceiling paints to use. The last job I did using it was a condo in a round hi rise with windows on the exteriro walls going from floor to ceiling. The bed and liv/kit ceilings were primed with a good coat of 123. The bedroom covered beautifully in 1 coat and the liv/kit in 2. I have done about 6 units in Marina Towers. This is the first one where we used BM Waterborne and I feel that it looks the best out of all the units. There were a lot of waves in the living room ceiling after the GC skimmed it to get rid of the orange peel, but they are not really visible under the BM. This paint is pretty darned flat!

As far as my favorite ceiling paint to roll out, I would have to say Behr's Premium Plus Ultra ceiling paint and primer would be that. I also liked Kilz' stain blocking ceiling paint as well. The Behr rep told me that the 2 paints are basically the same, with the Kilz having a little black added for better coverage. I have a feeling that the fact that this paint is a paint and primer in one might help it with coverage, the first coat acting as the prime coat and the second coat basicall covering well because of any sealing properties that might be being had with the first coat. The only problem I have with the Behr PPU ceiling paint is that it is a bit shiny, but if you aren't dealing with any significant amount of reflective light, this should not be a problem. I would imagine that this paint would have less problems with lap marks and hat-banding, but I do not have enough experience with it as yet.

What I did find interesting was that on the first job I used the PPU on, I finished rolling the 2nd coat on a 485 sq ft ceiling, then started painting crown molding at the same point I had started painting the ceiling. The crown molding was being painted a blood red. I got about 5 feet of it brushed out when I noticed that I had spattered some of the red paint on the ceiling that I had just painted not more than an hour or so ago. I thought that I would have to touch up the ceiling after trying to get as much red paint off as I could. I got a paper towel, wet it with water and removed all of the red paint with no trace remaining! In all fairness, I should say that I had put a coat of Gardz on the ceiling prior to painting as I suspected that the only paint on there was a contractor grade cheap paint and i did not want to "experiment" with a 485 sq ft ceiling. Even so, I don't think that having a coat of Gardz underneath the PPU ceiling paint would prevent the red trim paint from soaking into the ceiling paint.

Whether this feature (paint and primer in one) of the PPU would make using Gardz a waste of time I do not know. I guess I would have to "experiment" to find out, perhaps on a small ceiling. I don't enjoy experimenting with large ceilings. They are not like walls where if you start painting a small wall and find out that the water is being sucked out of it into a black hole, you have the option the stop and coat the rest of the walls with Gardz before continuing with the tragedy. With a ceiling, once you start, you have to finish. Though not perfect in every instance, Gardz provides good insurance for getting a good job the first time without having to go back and fix things.

In summation, I have only done several ceilings with BM Waterborne. I have used Gardz first on my own jobs. The one described above that I did for the GC I only was able to paint over 123. They all turned out wonderful and as much as I dilike brushing and rolling BM Waterborne, the finished product looks about as good as it can get.

There may be others here who disagree with me, but they are wrong. Don't listen to them, whatever you do!

futtyos
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Old 03-29-2017, 11:01 AM   #12
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Without knowing more, I would say that the Sure Seal did not seal the surface and the water in the paint got sucked up into the ceiling as you were rolling it on, thus causing the unevenness of the 1st and 2nd coats.



Have you ever used Gardz? It is a sealer that dries clear, but does not allow any of the water in the paint to be sucked up into the surface, allowing it to be worked and rolled out evenly, then causing it to dry slowly as all the water in the paint stays in the paint until it evaporates into the room and not get sucked up into the drywall or plaster.



You basically did an experiment to see if Sure Seal would seal the surface of the ceiling. Sounds to me like it didn't. I have done a lot of experiments along the way. Sometimes they are worth doing and sometimes not.



Using Gardz can help you do less experiments and help you make sure you get the job done, even if you have to take what you think is an extra step. As it turned out, you did have take an extra step by having to put a 3rd coat on. The fact that using BM extender gave you better results tells me that the ceiling was sucking the water out of the paint on your first two coats and that the extender gave you just barely a fighting chance.



Perhaps the fact that the ceiling paint was tinted for this particular room might have been a factor in the striping (lap marks?) and shadow boxing (hat banding?), but it also may be that this particular ceiling was absorbing more water out of the paint than the other ceiling you did.



If you have a concern that a surface is so dry that it will suck the water out of the paint, try using Gardz on a job where you think that might be a problem. My guess is that as you start rolling the paint over the Gardz, you will think that you have died and gone to painters' heaven and that you will wish that every ceiling or wall you roll should be this easy to do.



s far as BM Waterborne having a problem, the only problem I have had with it is that it is difficult, at least for me, to spread the paint out and creat an even coat. In this regard, it is one of my least favorite ceiling paints to use. The last job I did using it was a condo in a round hi rise with windows on the exteriro walls going from floor to ceiling. The bed and liv/kit ceilings were primed with a good coat of 123. The bedroom covered beautifully in 1 coat and the liv/kit in 2. I have done about 6 units in Marina Towers. This is the first one where we used BM Waterborne and I feel that it looks the best out of all the units. There were a lot of waves in the living room ceiling after the GC skimmed it to get rid of the orange peel, but they are not really visible under the BM. This paint is pretty darned flat!



As far as my favorite ceiling paint to roll out, I would have to say Behr's Premium Plus Ultra ceiling paint and primer would be that. I also liked Kilz' stain blocking ceiling paint as well. The Behr rep told me that the 2 paints are basically the same, with the Kilz having a little black added for better coverage. I have a feeling that the fact that this paint is a paint and primer in one might help it with coverage, the first coat acting as the prime coat and the second coat basicall covering well because of any sealing properties that might be being had with the first coat. The only problem I have with the Behr PPU ceiling paint is that it is a bit shiny, but if you aren't dealing with any significant amount of reflective light, this should not be a problem. I would imagine that this paint would have less problems with lap marks and hat-banding, but I do not have enough experience with it as yet.



What I did find interesting was that on the first job I used the PPU on, I finished rolling the 2nd coat on a 485 sq ft ceiling, then started painting crown molding at the same point I had started painting the ceiling. The crown molding was being painted a blood red. I got about 5 feet of it brushed out when I noticed that I had spattered some of the red paint on the ceiling that I had just painted not more than an hour or so ago. I thought that I would have to touch up the ceiling after trying to get as much red paint off as I could. I got a paper towel, wet it with water and removed all of the red paint with no trace remaining! In all fairness, I should say that I had put a coat of Gardz on the ceiling prior to painting as I suspected that the only paint on there was a contractor grade cheap paint and i did not want to "experiment" with a 485 sq ft ceiling. Even so, I don't think that having a coat of Gardz underneath the PPU ceiling paint would prevent the red trim paint from soaking into the ceiling paint.



Whether this feature (paint and primer in one) of the PPU would make using Gardz a waste of time I do not know. I guess I would have to "experiment" to find out, perhaps on a small ceiling. I don't enjoy experimenting with large ceilings. They are not like walls where if you start painting a small wall and find out that the water is being sucked out of it into a black hole, you have the option the stop and coat the rest of the walls with Gardz before continuing with the tragedy. With a ceiling, once you start, you have to finish. Though not perfect in every instance, Gardz provides good insurance for getting a good job the first time without having to go back and fix things.



In summation, I have only done several ceilings with BM Waterborne. I have used Gardz first on my own jobs. The one described above that I did for the GC I only was able to paint over 123. They all turned out wonderful and as much as I dilike brushing and rolling BM Waterborne, the finished product looks about as good as it can get.



There may be others here who disagree with me, but they are wrong. Don't listen to them, whatever you do!



futtyos


I have used Gardz wall sizing product before. I've been using BM SureSeal since it was released, never any type of failure yet. I must update since the coat with extender the ceiling looks much better. However, the ceiling has horrible drywall seams, the ceiling is part drywall and wet plaster. The surface is everything but flat. As I was rolling it out my roller would pitch from right to left, picture a roller coaster pitching left to right and vice versa, if you will.

As another forum member mentioned, and we all know there is only so much paint can hide or conceal in terms of surface imperfections.

I appreciate your input
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Old 03-30-2017, 11:19 PM   #13
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Default Problem with BM Waterborne Ceiling paint 508

Just an update as I suspected when it Became sunny the Ceiling would show imperfections, and it did. I even told the homeowner that I wanted to wait until it was sunny to see how the ceiling turned out.

As I suspected it doesn't look good, but it is better than the previous coats. So the blame game started, of course the Ceiling is perfectly flat etc.etc. . Then the problem was the fact that I used Benjamin Moore, according to the homeowner. I informed the homeowner I will repaint again, however I am going to re-prime like I originally wanted to when the issues were the worst. The home owner doesn't want me to re-prime, insists it is the BM paint.

Sooooo I leave head up to the SW store have the manager jump in the van with me to see the ceiling, of course he was trying to bad mouth BM product saying their products are inferior while driving to the house. I let him know that if all he can do is bad mouth the competition then he would not be welcome at my job site.

I let him and the home owner know that I was starting at square one and re-prime. Manager recommends pro-block primer which I agreed with, and he recommends primary Ceiling paint which I have never used, but I am willing to try. However the manager recommended a 3/8 nap roller for a 18x28 Ceiling, I expressed that I prefer a 3/4 nap for carrying of paint. He sold me 3/4 purdy roller cover, usually I use either Wooster superfab or pro doZ. so we will see how this re-do works out.
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Old 03-31-2017, 07:22 AM   #14
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My experience with sureseal is it is 100% crap. I will never use it again. I even went round and round with the BM reps over it. All the BM reps around here were pissed I stated online sureseal is crap. We used it twice and both times had issues we had never had before using different primers. Just because its cheap doesn't mean it isn't crap. I don't care if they give it to me for free, right into the trash it will go.
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Old 03-31-2017, 09:59 AM   #15
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My experience with sureseal is it is 100% crap. I will never use it again. I even went round and round with the BM reps over it. All the BM reps around here were pissed I stated online sureseal is crap. We used it twice and both times had issues we had never had before using different primers. Just because its cheap doesn't mean it isn't crap. I don't care if they give it to me for free, right into the trash it will go.


What kind of problems were you having? I haven't had any issues until this current situation. My switch wasn't based on price I used to use Freshstart before sureseal, yes sureseal takes longer to dry when compared to Freshstart. However, the majority of home interiors I do are wet plaster, the few times I used it on drywall I had no issues, until now.
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Old 03-31-2017, 10:09 AM   #16
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My experience with sureseal is it is 100% crap. I will never use it again. I even went round and round with the BM reps over it. All the BM reps around here were pissed I stated online sureseal is crap. We used it twice and both times had issues we had never had before using different primers. Just because its cheap doesn't mean it isn't crap. I don't care if they give it to me for free, right into the trash it will go.

No issues here with Sure Seal. It's definitely not a stain blocker, but it works well sealing interior drywall and has a great price point for an interior / exterior primer.
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Old 03-31-2017, 12:13 PM   #17
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Just an update as I suspected when it Became sunny the Ceiling would show imperfections, and it did. I even told the homeowner that I wanted to wait until it was sunny to see how the ceiling turned out.

As I suspected it doesn't look good, but it is better than the previous coats. So the blame game started, of course the Ceiling is perfectly flat etc.etc. . Then the problem was the fact that I used Benjamin Moore, according to the homeowner. I informed the homeowner I will repaint again, however I am going to re-prime like I originally wanted to when the issues were the worst. The home owner doesn't want me to re-prime, insists it is the BM paint.

Sooooo I leave head up to the SW store have the manager jump in the van with me to see the ceiling, of course he was trying to bad mouth BM product saying their products are inferior while driving to the house. I let him know that if all he can do is bad mouth the competition then he would not be welcome at my job site.

I let him and the home owner know that I was starting at square one and re-prime. Manager recommends pro-block primer which I agreed with, and he recommends primary Ceiling paint which I have never used, but I am willing to try. However the manager recommended a 3/8 nap roller for a 18x28 Ceiling, I expressed that I prefer a 3/4 nap for carrying of paint. He sold me 3/4 purdy roller cover, usually I use either Wooster superfab or pro doZ. so we will see how this re-do works out.
Is this the new primer that you are going to use?


Have you ever used it before? Just curious.

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Old 03-31-2017, 12:27 PM   #18
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Just an update as I suspected when it Became sunny the Ceiling would show imperfections, and it did. I even told the homeowner that I wanted to wait until it was sunny to see how the ceiling turned out.

As I suspected it doesn't look good, but it is better than the previous coats. So the blame game started, of course the Ceiling is perfectly flat etc.etc. . Then the problem was the fact that I used Benjamin Moore, according to the homeowner. I informed the homeowner I will repaint again, however I am going to re-prime like I originally wanted to when the issues were the worst. The home owner doesn't want me to re-prime, insists it is the BM paint.

Sooooo I leave head up to the SW store have the manager jump in the van with me to see the ceiling, of course he was trying to bad mouth BM product saying their products are inferior while driving to the house. I let him know that if all he can do is bad mouth the competition then he would not be welcome at my job site.

I let him and the home owner know that I was starting at square one and re-prime. Manager recommends pro-block primer which I agreed with, and he recommends primary Ceiling paint which I have never used, but I am willing to try. However the manager recommended a 3/8 nap roller for a 18x28 Ceiling, I expressed that I prefer a 3/4 nap for carrying of paint. He sold me 3/4 purdy roller cover, usually I use either Wooster superfab or pro doZ. so we will see how this re-do works out.
From what you said, it sounds like the HO is thinking that the ceiling is flat and there should be no problems showing through the primer and paint. Is this basically true? If so, and before you do one more thing with this ceiling, I would print up some kind of blurb (someone here in Paint Talk described something like this within the last year I believe) regarding your description of the state of the ceiling and that no paint is going to make all the imperfections invisible short of repairing and skim coating the whole ceiling. Have the HO sign this document showing that he agrees with you so that after redo the ceiling as you have detailed, he can't come back and complain about the tape lines and such that are still showing through. If he is unwilling to sign this - while you are both looking at the ceiling and you are pointing out the obvious flaws and listening to him say they are not there - then you will be forwarned and be able to act accordingly. Good luck.

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Old 03-31-2017, 12:47 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Mml665 View Post
What kind of problems were you having? I haven't had any issues until this current situation. My switch wasn't based on price I used to use Freshstart before sureseal, yes sureseal takes longer to dry when compared to Freshstart. However, the majority of home interiors I do are wet plaster, the few times I used it on drywall I had no issues, until now.
Over fresh plaster that was cured for 20 days it bubbled, on trim it bubbled. We tried a different store with a different batch same exact thing. I won't use it at all.

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Originally Posted by SWPB View Post
No issues here with Sure Seal. It's definitely not a stain blocker, but it works well sealing interior drywall and has a great price point for an interior / exterior primer.
That issue we had cost us an extra 2 days and couple hundred bucks. For a low priced primer I will not touch it again. When a product fails due to reasons beyond me I call the reps. All they had were either excuses or laying blame elsewhere. I've been using BM products for 30 years and this is by far the worst product they have in my experience.
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Old 03-31-2017, 01:37 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by futtyos View Post
Is this the new primer that you are going to use?



Sherwin Williams PrepRite ProBlock Latex Primer PEELING - YouTube



Have you ever used it before? Just curious.



futtyos


As a matter of fact I have used ProBlock before. There is no fresh joint compound right now so it should work well, but we will see.
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