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Old 06-25-2015, 04:11 AM   #1
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Default Shellac primer: what all do you use it on?

Ive heard a lot of people using shellac primer here, which i had never heard of before. Here in Germany shellac is almost only used on old furniture or on musical instruments.

As I gather, north americans use it as a stain blocker, which makes sense given water-soluble stains cant get through alcohol-soluble shellac.

As alcohol is the only solvent in it, it also sounds much more environmentally friendly.

But on Zinsser BINs data sheet it says it does not breathe i.e. has no water vapor permeability.

Is that not a huge problem regarding mold, or expansion/contraction of wood?
or is it just only used on surfaces where this is not an issue?

Im thinking of trying out zinsser bin, thats why im asking.
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Old 06-25-2015, 04:41 AM   #2
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Bin is the best for sealing knots and nicotine
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Old 06-25-2015, 05:13 AM   #3
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right but if you have an entire nicotine stained ceiling you dont want to seal off all moisture absorption/release
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Old 06-25-2015, 06:16 AM   #4
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BIN is not recommended for overall priming on wood.

I have never had issues with the moisture concerns you mention when using BIN on large PLASTER surfaces. IMO, plaster does need to breathe like wood, AND since the back side of plaster is usually not sealed nor tight against another surface, if any moisture NEEDED to migrate back and forth, it could do so from the back.

If you have a wood ceiling that is stained with nicotine, then to be safe, you may look into other alternatives.



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Old 06-25-2015, 06:19 AM   #5
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It can be clean with Ammonia and water. Witch is one of the reasons I love it so much. The Zinner brand I have use for a lot of different reasons the biggest is smoke damage, and water stains. I don't like it for nicotine. I have had it bleed through. I know a painter in some rentals that would use it as a finish coat in down and dirty rental kitchen paint for small areas. Three coats and he was don't with it drying so fast he could get it done in one trip.
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Old 06-25-2015, 07:51 AM   #6
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It can be clean with Ammonia and water. Witch is one of the reasons I love it so much. The Zinner brand I have use for a lot of different reasons the biggest is smoke damage, and water stains. I don't like it for nicotine. I have had it bleed through. I know a painter in some rentals that would use it as a finish coat in down and dirty rental kitchen paint for small areas. Three coats and he was don't with it drying so fast he could get it done in one trip.
I wonder why he didn't switch to white paint for the 3rd coat in his down and dirty system?
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Old 06-25-2015, 09:09 AM   #7
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also it is soluble in alcohol, so dont spill whisky anywhere!
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Old 06-25-2015, 11:12 AM   #8
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Knots on exterior rough sawn trim. Facia, corner, barge, window frames...
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Old 06-25-2015, 11:54 AM   #9
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Knots on exterior rough sawn trim. Facia, corner, barge, window frames...
I never used it on exterior, and I recall someone mentioning that they had issues when he used it on exterior knots. Do you ever have issues with it when used on exteriors?
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Old 06-25-2015, 12:15 PM   #10
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You want to paint over it the same day. It doesn't fix all sap bleed every time with 1 coat. Some knots need 2 or 3 coats to stop it. When you put that much on you can get flashing so you'll have to put more coats on and bid accordingly.
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Old 06-25-2015, 03:02 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JourneymanBrian View Post
Ive heard a lot of people using shellac primer here, which i had never heard of before. Here in Germany shellac is almost only used on old furniture or on musical instruments.

As I gather, north americans use it as a stain blocker, which makes sense given water-soluble stains cant get through alcohol-soluble shellac.

As alcohol is the only solvent in it, it also sounds much more environmentally friendly.

But on Zinsser BINs data sheet it says it does not breathe i.e. has no water vapor permeability.

Is that not a huge problem regarding mold, or expansion/contraction of wood?
or is it just only used on surfaces where this is not an issue?

Im thinking of trying out zinsser bin, thats why im asking.
Hey Brian...

If you've never used shellac before, be aware there is a slight learning curve to the application of shellac vs. oil base or latex coatings. It rolls OK, but is awful thin, so spatter can be a headache...it brushes well & sprays beautiful (as long as you don't put it on too heavy). Shellac also dries fast - very fast. ...And Zinsser BIN is a pigmented shellac (not clear). As chrisn will surely come along and mention, the smell will knock you stupid if you're around 'em too long, but those fumes dissipate fairly quickly - but still make sure you have adequate ventillation during use.

Zinsser BIN is a great primer, sealer and stain-blocker, and works on a greater number of stains than do either oil or latex stain blockers. And, of course, one of the greatest advantages to shellac is that it is a non-reactive coating, requiring only solvent evaporation to thoroughly dry and cure. BIN works great on wood, but better on varnished, or previously painted wood, for the very reasons of vapor transmission that you mentioned earlier. If you apply it to larger wood surfaces, such as doors that may not have been sealed completely, the expansion and contraction of the door will cause the film to craze significantly (but won't lose adhesion). BIN also has advantage on certain substrates because of shellac's phenomenal level of adhesion to glossy, slick surfaces unlike any other resin type, including acrylics.

In my opinion, BIN is still the best product for use in fire restoration and water damage issues. Unfortunately, BIN has suffered in popularity due to rapid price increases, sporadic availability of product, and less expensive stain killing alternatives. Zinsser has just recently introduced a water-borne synthetic shellac that seems to have many of the same characteristics as the regular BIN (without the noxious fumes).

In this industry, contractors seem to either love or hate the product... personally, I think it's a great product for use in difficult areas relating to adhesion or bleeding stain issues. It is probably a little too expensive to use as your everyday, universal primer, though. I have no idea whether that answered, or even addressed, your questions and concerns, but good luck and let us know what you decide to do.

Last edited by Ric; 06-25-2015 at 03:05 PM..
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Old 06-25-2015, 04:51 PM   #12
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thanks, Ric that is very helpful
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Old 06-25-2015, 06:02 PM   #13
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thanks, Ric that is very helpful
He is a very helpful guy
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Old 06-25-2015, 06:47 PM   #14
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I never used it on exterior, and I recall someone mentioning that they had issues when he used it on exterior knots. Do you ever have issues with it when used on exteriors?
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Old 06-25-2015, 07:05 PM   #15
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It's not for knots.I tell you not.Does a pretty knotty job of this.I'm a Zinsser fan but lacks hiding power.On todays pine lumber you can spot three to four coats over the knots allowing sufficient drying times and apply a top quality primer and two finish coats and over a short time will rear its ugly head once again! Shellac has it's place but slacks in this department.If it were "knot" so I would tell you.
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Old 06-25-2015, 08:05 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mudbone View Post
It's not for knots.I tell you not.Does a pretty knotty job of this.I'm a Zinsser fan but lacks hiding power.On todays pine lumber you can spot three to four coats over the knots allowing sufficient drying times and apply a top quality primer and two finish coats and over a short time will rear its ugly head once again! Shellac has it's place but slacks in this department.If it were "knot" so I would tell you.
Have you found a product that does hide knots on "today's pine lumber?"
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Old 06-25-2015, 09:53 PM   #17
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Have you found a product that does hide knots on "today's pine lumber?"
Some painter on here a few years back swore by coating knots with Titebond lll.i have tried this by brushing on a few light coats over the knots and so far so good.
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Old 06-25-2015, 09:54 PM   #18
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Some painter on here a few years back swore by coating knots with Titebond lll.i have tried this by brushing on a few light coats over the knots and so far so good.
The dark glue kind.
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Old 06-25-2015, 09:57 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by mudbone View Post
Some painter on here a few years back swore by coating knots with Titebond lll.i have tried this by brushing on a few light coats over the knots and so far so good.
Wow. If three coats of Titebond III works, I wonder what one coat of Liquid Nails or the poly PL construction adhesive would do?
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Old 06-25-2015, 10:37 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ric View Post
Hey Brian...

If you've never used shellac before, be aware there is a slight learning curve to the application of shellac vs. oil base or latex coatings. It rolls OK, but is awful thin, so spatter can be a headache...it brushes well & sprays beautiful (as long as you don't put it on too heavy). Shellac also dries fast - very fast. ...And Zinsser BIN is a pigmented shellac (not clear). As chrisn will surely come along and mention, the smell will knock you stupid if you're around 'em too long, but those fumes dissipate fairly quickly - but still make sure you have adequate ventillation during use.

Zinsser BIN is a great primer, sealer and stain-blocker, and works on a greater number of stains than do either oil or latex stain blockers. And, of course, one of the greatest advantages to shellac is that it is a non-reactive coating, requiring only solvent evaporation to thoroughly dry and cure. BIN works great on wood, but better on varnished, or previously painted wood, for the very reasons of vapor transmission that you mentioned earlier. If you apply it to larger wood surfaces, such as doors that may not have been sealed completely, the expansion and contraction of the door will cause the film to craze significantly (but won't lose adhesion). BIN also has advantage on certain substrates because of shellac's phenomenal level of adhesion to glossy, slick surfaces unlike any other resin type, including acrylics.

In my opinion, BIN is still the best product for use in fire restoration and water damage issues. Unfortunately, BIN has suffered in popularity due to rapid price increases, sporadic availability of product, and less expensive stain killing alternatives. Zinsser has just recently introduced a water-borne synthetic shellac that seems to have many of the same characteristics as the regular BIN (without the noxious fumes).

In this industry, contractors seem to either love or hate the product... personally, I think it's a great product for use in difficult areas relating to adhesion or bleeding stain issues. It is probably a little too expensive to use as your everyday, universal primer, though. I have no idea whether that answered, or even addressed, your questions and concerns, but good luck and let us know what you decide to do.
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