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Side job questions

10K views 82 replies 32 participants last post by  Krittterkare 
#1 ·
So I'm a supervisor for Evans painting in Joplin Missouri I have a side job coming up that is a two story exterior soffits are probably trim color don't know a whole lot about it yet haven't had a chance to talk to the guys face to face just wondering what is the best possible way with very little information to give him an estimate until I talk to him they say which is not an easy thing to do and you work Monday through Friday any ideas

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#51 ·
When I was doing side jobs/moonlighting/etc very rarely was I the lowballer. It was usually the 'legit' company. I got most of the jobs because of my experience, product knowledge, and I explained to the customer what I was going to do and why. Even though it was a cash job, I still guaranteed my work. In those 10 years, only 1 call back which was a deck that wad always going to fail.
Doing these 'side jobs' is what got me where I am, sprayers, ladders, confidence, and a client list that could choke a hippo
 
#54 ·
A question to Oden and JourneymanPainter,

Isn't it against union rules to moonlight, or at least against some union ethic or protocol to apply your trade outside the boundaries of your union?

We're not even supposed to practice our trade in retirement!

My point is, everyone does it. But you're not supposed to advertise it. Like the OP.
 
#58 ·
Is it against union rules to moonlight? Yes.

Is it against union rules to not pay overtime? Yes but it still happens.

I never advertised, I never have out a card on the job (I didn't even have cards until I moved to the west coast). When a commercial GC would approach me I would give the contact info to my employer (if I liked them), if I didn't like them I would pass it on to another good company. 99% of union companies don't/won't touch residential unless they cab charge an arm and a leg. As a journeyman in the union I make $32/hr+ pension and benefits. Not much room to make any money on a residential re paint (not a slight to the guys who do that for a living)
 
#56 ·
spuds said:
So I'm a supervisor for Evans painting in Joplin Missouri I have a side job coming up that is a two story exterior soffits are probably trim color don't know a whole lot about it yet haven't had a chance to talk to the guys face to face just wondering what is the best possible way with very little information to give him an estimate until I talk to him they say which is not an easy thing to do and you work Monday through Friday any ideas Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using PaintTalk.com mobile app
CApainter said:
A question to Oden and JourneymanPainter, Isn't it against union rules to moonlight, or at least against some union ethic or protocol to apply your trade outside the boundaries of your union? We're not even supposed to practice our trade in retirement! My point is, everyone does it. But you're not supposed to advertise it. Like the OP.
Nah I would not have and do not give out the name of my shop on the PT
No good could come of it. So only bad could.
A lot of guys I see do similar on here and I don't get that.
Whatever
 
#59 ·
Yes, definitely against union rules to be doing scab jobs. I know a guy that was forced to work an extra two years to collect his pension, b/c he got busted side jobbing.

Seriously guys get a grip. Talk about the most negative, cynical, scared-of-some-competition, clique. This guy sounds like he's got some hustle, and wants to get in the game himself some day. What would be wrong with helpin him out? Oh, thats right, ya'll already knew every rule in the damn book before you ever picked up a brush, and if not then, then certainly you did before you started swapping the brush for the pen/phone. The holier-than-thou attitude ain't gonna get you any farther than you are now. And don't act like you haven't ever broke the speed limit.

How bout some encouragement, if for no other reason than just a good ol fashioned change of pace around here?! Hell, ya never know; could be entertaining!

Like my mom always said, if you don't have anything good to say then don't say anything.
 
#64 ·
Monstertruck said:
Oh, well that's perfectly alright then. Put in some OT at your real job if you'd like to get ahead or pick up another part-time real job. Your screwing the rest of us by working under the table. THAT is not what a 'professional' painting contractor does.;)
. Especially asking all these questions on a site FOR professional paint contractors
 
#65 ·
spuds said:
Well I don't think I'm in over my head because as far as the painting goes I can out paint probably anybody in this town I have all the tools that I need frok my boss I'm trying to get to Wear I can start my own business but I need to learn to do this businesses end of it thanks for the negativity guys appreciate Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using PaintTalk.com mobile app
You are in over your head by not having a lot of information about the proposal you are to give which you are to do the work on.
You are in over your head by having to ask on here about that proposal which you have limited information on.
You should not use any of your bosses tools unless you tell him about it and he volunteers to lend them to you.
Your boss is your boss for a reason.
"I can out paint everyone in my town." Congrats but I probably can too. So can everyone else who has painted for a while. Do you want to be the best painter in town or the painter with the most money?

Besides the fact that your most likely going to be paid in cash that you don't claim, will underbid legit contractors and devalue the trade, I like your motivation to start something, earn extra for your family and a better life altogether.
We all started somewhere, probably very similar to you. I know I did, but quickly became legit, as I can tell you is a thousand times more difficult than you think. I saw potential in it too and went on my own.
I would have to think more than half the people on here started their business the same way.

All this "negativity" your getting here is simply constructive, thoughtful and respectful criticism from professionals to a rookie. Respectful in the sense that people here take their time to educate you that it's not as simple as it seems. As professions, it is just another part of our job to inform those that think there's nothing more to a painting business other than painting.
 
#67 ·
I'm taking the middle road.

People who show initiative and hustle should be encouraged - which this place does.

People who are just starting out should be encouraged to do it legally, and above board - which this place does.

People who only have half the skills to make their business successful should be helped on their weak skills - which this place does.

Somehow, lengthy threads start sounding like we are in disagreement - which I don't believe we are.
 
#68 ·
I have 3 great craftsman who thought they could run a business working for me now. All have been humbled by what it takes to pull it off and they seem to show much more respect for what I do then many others. Most employees think you play golf every day,drive around making sales calls a few hour,take extended vacations and go to sleep every night on a pile of money all at the expense of their hard work....they're only half right :)
 
#71 ·
Have we scared him off yet?

If your going to work on your own jobs, have your own tools. Period.

Start making the RIGHT phone calls to calculate your overhead.

Call an insurance company and ask for a quote on general liability, and commercial auto insurance.

Call a lawyer and ask what they would charge to set you up as an LLC (it cost me $350). Don't try to be a lawyer and do it yourself. Ask how much to draw up a standard contract.

Next, call a payroll cmpany. Ask how much to setup payroll so you can put yourself on a salary.

Next call an accountant, ask how much to get you setup in quickbooks. Ask how much to do your quarterly taxes.

Next make some calls about advertising. Get prices on various things.

Calculate a fuel budget monthly.

Calculate 1/10 vehicle cost to add in your pricing for maintenance fund, eventually this will grow to be your replacement vehicle fund.

Calculate a tool budget for ladders/sprayers/etc

Give yourself a yearly salary.

Now for some math. Convert all these numbers to a yearly number for each item. Add all these numbers together and you have your total anticipated yearly cost of doing business. Divide that by 2000 working hours in a year and you have your hourly rate to charge.

Add 20% for profit.

This should give a starting point. Of course there are things I left out, but this covers a bulk of the stuff required for being self employed.
 
#72 ·
Have we scared him off yet?



If your going to work on your own jobs, have your own tools. Period.



Start making the RIGHT phone calls to calculate your overhead.



Call an insurance company and ask for a quote on general liability, and commercial auto insurance.



Call a lawyer and ask what they would charge to set you up as an LLC (it cost me $350). Don't try to be a lawyer and do it yourself. Ask how much to draw up a standard contract.



Next, call a payroll cmpany. Ask how much to setup payroll so you can put yourself on a salary.



Next call an accountant, ask how much to get you setup in quickbooks. Ask how much to do your quarterly taxes.



Next make some calls about advertising. Get prices on various things.



Calculate a fuel budget monthly.



Calculate 1/10 vehicle cost to add in your pricing for maintenance fund, eventually this will grow to be your replacement vehicle fund.



Calculate a tool budget for ladders/sprayers/etc



Give yourself a yearly salary.



Now for some math. Convert all these numbers to a yearly number for each item. Add all these numbers together and you have your total anticipated yearly cost of doing business. Divide that by 2000 working hours in a year and you have your hourly rate to charge.



Add 20% for profit.



This should give a starting point. Of course there are things I left out, but this covers a bulk of the stuff required for being self employed.

You forgot the last part. Now take that number into a bank and try to convince them not us your worth it.
 
#76 ·
Let me attempt to simplify this. Either a side jobber is a hack and he will go belly up before long, or he will be a decent painter and provide you with honest competition (which isnt completely a bad thing considering both circumstances.)
 
#77 ·
I'm not quite sure about the "honest" part if the sidejobber isn't paying taxes, isn't insured or licensed. However, I think the sidejobber who becomes serious about starting a business will understand the necessity of acquiring these things. There will always be those who don't care about being legitimate, and it is these people who tend to piss off others. It is quite easy to appear legit...customers of these pretenders just need to ask for some proof of licensing/insurance and these types who be exposed.

I prefer potential customers who ask for proof. I believe they will be more appreciative of the finished product and more likely to understand the cost involved.
 
#83 ·
You say that the homeowner will pay for materials then that makes things easier, just figure you should make double or better then what your employer pays you. When I did side jobs 300 a day was ok but often I could knock out a small house over a weekend and a couple of evenings and make 500 to 750 a day.
The idea is you are making extra and Better money, my boss was not always happy when I took on sidejobs but I never failed on any side jobs and it did not affect my work for my boss as he claimed it would do. I now work for myself and by myself
and most of the time the customer pays for materials.

Go for it and make a name for yourself and own all the tools you need and if you get big enough then you will be forced to get legit but insurance is not that expensive, if you are doing enough side work you can invest in insurance and protect yourself and your customers.
 
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