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Old 09-10-2019, 02:07 PM   #1
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Default Stain washed off

Anybody have any idea why this happened. Originally stain was dipped. Newer stain is Cabot. Put on around 10 years ago it is not oil stain. When I powered washed many areas totally washed off.



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Old 09-10-2019, 08:26 PM   #2
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Looks like typical oxidation which leaves the chalky film on top and you see the real color after washing it off. I remember the claims of the paint companies are that "it's the 'self-cleaning' feature of the paint that is the cause." LOL. Never bought into that one.

I know even when I PW aluminum or vinyl siding, they, too have that chalky layer that ends up looking like milk when it lands on a hard surface and mixes with the water from the PW.

Other than those thoughts, I really can't say what is REALLY going on.......
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Old 09-11-2019, 07:20 AM   #3
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What gymschu said
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:10 AM   #4
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Cheap stains and paints will do that stuff. That's one of the big differences between good stain and not so good stain.
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Old 09-11-2019, 10:47 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Theoriginalpacman View Post
Cheap stains and paints will do that stuff. That's one of the big differences between good stain and not so good stain.
The thing is that it is old Cabot stain...not post "sold twice" Cabot stain. And, it did not happen on the entire house.

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Old 09-11-2019, 10:13 PM   #6
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It happens on sun exposed portions more than shade protected parts. You need to get rid of all the chalky residue before you re-paint. If some still comes off on your finger after washing and it is dry it is not clean enough. Paint will not bond to it. If you use a latex top coat add emulsa-bond or similar bonding agent to the paint, mix it in exactly the ratio on the label. I know some here will complain e-b doesn't work but I have used it since the early 90's with great results. Zinsser 123 sometimes works as a primer for it if you are top coating with oil.
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Old 09-12-2019, 06:12 AM   #7
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Ya, definitely chaulking.
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Old 09-12-2019, 08:07 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Martin the Painter View Post
Anybody have any idea why this happened. Originally stain was dipped. Newer stain is Cabot. Put on around 10 years ago it is not oil stain. When I powered washed many areas totally washed off.



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It's probably a Sherwin Williams stain.
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Old 09-12-2019, 10:13 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmp View Post
It happens on sun exposed portions more than shade protected parts. You need to get rid of all the chalky residue before you re-paint. If some still comes off on your finger after washing and it is dry it is not clean enough. Paint will not bond to it. If you use a latex top coat add emulsa-bond or similar bonding agent to the paint, mix it in exactly the ratio on the label. I know some here will complain e-b doesn't work but I have used it since the early 90's with great results. Zinsser 123 sometimes works as a primer for it if you are top coating with oil.
That explains why it only happened on part of the house. Mainly east and part of the south. Big trees block a lot of the sun in the summer.

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Old 09-12-2019, 10:15 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmp View Post
It happens on sun exposed portions more than shade protected parts. You need to get rid of all the chalky residue before you re-paint. If some still comes off on your finger after washing and it is dry it is not clean enough. Paint will not bond to it. If you use a latex top coat add emulsa-bond or similar bonding agent to the paint, mix it in exactly the ratio on the label. I know some here will complain e-b doesn't work but I have used it since the early 90's with great results. Zinsser 123 sometimes works as a primer for it if you are top coating with oil.
Why would I need to use the bonding agent if I was off all of the chalky residue?

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Old 09-12-2019, 10:15 AM   #11
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Definitely chalking..pigment becomes unbound due to UV erosion of binder. Itís happening to a paint film on my current project where I can literally see a buildup of chalky pigment residue on the cedar roof just from rainwater run-off beneath chalked painted surfaces..a Mooreís product by the way, the finish being 5 years young. Happens to the best of them, not just to Cabotís, SW, or Behr..
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:39 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Martin the Painter View Post
Why would I need to use the bonding agent if I was off all of the chalky residue?

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It is difficult to 100% remove all the chalky residue and the bonding primer makes sure you won't have a failure down the road. It cost 45 or so dollars a gallon and you mix it 4 to 1 so you have 5 gallons of product. It does not thin the paint and it is only needed for the first coat. I just don't like to take a chance so I use it. I have used e-b in lots of different paint companies products but it might not be compatible with every product out there. Remember it is for latex only.
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:42 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmp View Post
It is difficult to 100% remove all the chalky residue and the bonding primer makes sure you won't have a failure down the road. It cost 45 or so dollars a gallon and you mix it 4 to 1 so you have 5 gallons of product. It does not thin the paint and it is only needed for the first coat. I just don't like to take a chance so I use it. I have used e-b in lots of different paint companies products but it might not be compatible with every product out there. Remember it is for latex only.

Didn't PPG discontinue emulsabond recently?
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:51 PM   #14
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I know Flood makes it and I get through Sherwin but I know nothing about it being discontinued. I use it once or twice a year.
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Old Yesterday, 06:56 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cocomonkeynuts View Post
Didn't PPG discontinue emulsabond recently?
Flood discontinued emulsabond in paint, but I think you can still purchase it separately, as an additive. It mat be discontinued, but is still available in the shelf in a few stores (at least last time I checked).
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Old Yesterday, 08:56 AM   #16
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Emulsabond is the secret sauce when it comes to painting aluminum siding.

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Old Yesterday, 10:07 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holland View Post
Flood discontinued emulsabond in paint, but I think you can still purchase it separately, as an additive. It mat be discontinued, but is still available in the shelf in a few stores (at least last time I checked).

I could have sworn I saw a letter from PPG saying it was discontinued this year. I could be mistaken though.
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Old Yesterday, 10:38 AM   #18
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I know you cant get it in Canada anymore, but It seems like its still available here. Not many stores stock it though.
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Old Yesterday, 10:52 AM   #19
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I like AR's explanation, but here are some thoughts.

1. Stains, unlike most film forming coatings, are not designed to be applied with much degree of thickness.

2. Pete mentioned the shingles were dipped and that the stain was waterborne.

3. I think the Cabot stain was not designed to be applied heavy and what happened was that excessive pigments were never absorbed into the binder that was designed to penetrate into the substrate.

4. So rather than oxidation, which is typically a chemical reaxition with oil based products subjected to UV's, I think this is a combination of UV exposure to an unstable stain film that was applied too heavy resulting in loose pigmentation on the surface.
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Last edited by CApainter; Yesterday at 10:54 AM..
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Old Yesterday, 11:10 AM   #20
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I just reviewed Cabot's acrylic 1300 series stain TDS. A couple of points described in the data:

1. Life cycle was 4-8 years depending on UV exposure

2. 32% SBV with a recommended film thickness of "minimal". Which suggests that there is little to no WFT above 1 mil.

I think it's safe to say that dipping the shingles in stain may have exceeded the recommended WFT. And since the stain was an acrylic verses oil, the stain likely dried quicker and remained a thicker film then it would have if it were a slower drying oil base stain.

Last edited by CApainter; Yesterday at 11:14 AM..
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