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TIMELESS, life time warranty

8K views 41 replies 10 participants last post by  jennifertemple 
#1 ·
:vs_smirk:
Timeless comes with a "life time warranty", what the heck does that mean? Is it supposed to imply I'll never need to paint that thing again? Warranty against what? More nonsense marketing, IMHO!
 
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#5 · (Edited)
Yup, exceptional stuff, no longer available here in Canada. The label used to say " Manor Hall Timeless" but I see they changed the label. All that aside, it really is a self priming paint even on metal exteriors! I was a non believer until I saw it last two Canadian winters and none the worse for wear! I think I've seen my last gallon. :vs_sob:
Apparently Canuks are too cheap and they stopped selling it here for lack of sales. Really disappointing, I love the stuff and it is a real money saver when you consider you will not need to purchase primer and under most conditions it really does give one coat coverage if you apply it generously.
 
#6 ·
They sell it at Home Depot �� and it sits on the shelf as they don’t push it or market it. I’ve used it a few times the first year it was available here. Several years ago. My Indy Paint dealer sold a ton of timeless until Benjamin Moore cracked down and he had to remove from his lineup. As he’s gotta be Benjamin Moore exclusive store only there products.
 
#7 ·
They sell it at Home Depot �� and it sits on the shelf as they don’t push it or market it. I’ve used it a few times the first year it was available here. Several years ago. My Indy Paint dealer sold a ton of timeless until Benjamin Moore cracked down and he had to remove from his lineup. As he’s gotta be Benjamin Moore exclusive store only there products.

Home Depot in Canada is not listing Timeless anymore, here in Home Depot.ca. No doubt, the reason he sold a ton of it was that word got out that it really did not need a primer base coat before application. BM is a son of a gun, that way. It's all or nothing with them. I think it makes it hard to be an indy paint store. Ah, "the times they are a changing". It is becoming a sad world for indies. :sad:
 
#15 ·
15, 25, Lifetime warranties, really mean nothing when the average home owner repaints their house on the average of every 7 years. Color changes, sun-fade, weathering on one side, etc..

This was based on an independent seminar I went to when SW came out with a 25 year warranty. There was a very egotistical painting contractor here who thought if all the painters in our area protested it, SW would stop marketing it as such. LOL. What an idiot and I told him as much. Didn't see him at the seminar either.

This guy bragged about how he was the highest priced, most experienced painter in our area. I asked him one time, when was the last time he picked up a brush and why the majority of his crew averaged about 4-5 years experience? The guy was putting a little too much Columbian "marching powder" up the nose.
 
#19 ·
Few thoughts:

1) Ben Moore cannot & will not dictate what an independent retailer carries. It can, however, keep them out of a loyalty program due to selling the other brands. Many retailers carry multiple brands. More importantly, BM also could also lower its level of investment if a new store plans to offer other brands as well.
2) Insl-X: any paint store / big box can buy this brand. It's not a BM exclusive and SW commonly purchases their pool paint for resell.
3) Authorized BM Dealers: have access to BM, BM Corotech, Coronado, Lenmar, and Insl-X. It's their family of brands.
2) Lifetime Warranty: research showed that the typical homeowner changed color preferences every 7 years and ownership around 11--it's been quite some time since I read this, but the point remains the same. So basically, if you offer a lifetime NON-TRANSFERRABLE warranty, then you are just hedging your bets that the product lasts up to 11 years. Keep in mind that no manufacturer warrants against fade--they just call out peeling & blistering. And if it does occur, the manufacturer will give you enough material to touch up the affected area--labor is not implicitly included. Does that equate to a quart, gallon, or five? Doesn't really matter. It's all a cheap fix and a genius marketing ploy. The same tactic worked for sealants too. Formulas never changed, yet warranty periods shot from 10 years to 35. Worst case, here's a few tubes of caulk IF you have the receipt.
 
#20 ·
@SWPB Again, I think you are speaking from the USA! You say "Ben Moore cannot & will not dictate what an independent retailer carries." That is true but that does not mean they must sell their own products to Indies and they do not. It does appear that, in Canada, they can indeed, keep indies from selling their products. I think the rules are different in Canada and BM has proprietary stores here and no others carry their product, nor do the BM stores carry any product that they do not have a vested interest in. Again, as similar as the US & Canada are in many ways, we do have a lot of differences in the details. My own supplier carries multiple brands but nothing that BM has the license for.



I refuse to argue these points with anyone in the USA. If a Canadian can show me any error, I'll look into it but when Insul-X got bought out it ceased to be generally available here. If I did not need to travel a lot of extra miles, Insul-X products would still be a few of my first choices in primers!
 
#26 ·
SW leaves some decisions up to the Division Presidents. One great example of that is "outside" buys. Some divisions allow the store to order in Insl-X pool paint, while others steer their stores away and opt for Ramuc. But as the past has shown, SW "copies" (I use that term loosely) popular outside buys that could have been part of their planogram and eventually weeds them out in favor of in-house product. Every SW has access to their 3rd party procurement catalog, Shersource. Last I remember, I think Shersource was managed by Lancaster.

As for dedicated BM stores, that's solely up to the independent retailer. Some retailers prefer to be dedicated BM stores to reduce inventory (increase inventory turns) and improve buying power (more purchases = more discount). You cannot imagine the inventory dollars in these multi-brand stores. Think about all of the SKUs for sheen, bases, and product lines. Also imagine the number of tinters required to shoot BM products since it requires modified equipment. Ex. Store A has a Gennex tinter, color preview manual tinters for Coronado, 844 tints for Industrial (solvent based), and then a tinter for other brands. That's quite a bit, which makes being a dedicated retailer more appealing than stocking a wide array. And this doesn't even address PPG company owned stores underbidding fellow PPG Independent retailers. Granted, PPG corporate ensures that the independent retailer earns 20% GM on the project if landed, but that same retailer could have already had a great relationship with the painter / GC and would have made 35% without their interference.
 
#28 ·
Jennifer, I wasn't 100% sure, so I reached out to a few contacts in Canada. Many of the Canadian independent retailers opt to be dedicated BM stores. It's not a requirement, but certainly is a preferred partnership. Some Canadian outlets supply brands that I'm not familiar with, such as Trim Clad, Rosco, and even General Paint (SW). You will not find many multi-brand retailers. In most cases, a 2nd line requires an initial stock order that could be $25k, additional equipment that I mentioned previously, and the actual floor space to house the product. And lets face it, the independent retailers are fighting the Goliaths, such as SW, and have tight checkbooks to stay alive. That's why I give the independents last look. They are small business, the backbone of the economy.
 
#30 ·
It wouldn’t surprise me if BM reps influence and/or put pressure on stores to carry or drop certain products.

For example, I’m under the impression that my local BM dealer dropped fine paints of Europe due to pressure from BM when Century was released.


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#31 ·
Century is marketed to compete with F&B after all... and with limited distrubtion (only ~5% of BM dealers are 'approve' to carry century) in markets where F&B has some market share.

There may have been some politics with the local rep going on but again BM as a company is very adamant about the 'independent' stores being 100% independent. More likely FPE wasn't selling all that great.
 
#33 ·
BM has two application forms one for a "Retailer to Convert" to BM and the other is to buy a "dealership" (Franchise) Both are limited to BM lines and products BM owns. I checked with my local guy to ask about them getting Insul-X product for me. No can do, only BM deals can sell those products here, because BM owns that company now, There do seem to be tricky ways around the BM rules but for an average Indy it is not worth the trouble from what I could find out. Al;so the information they want from an applicant is horrendous and includes all spouse information as well. All to be made available to various 3rd parties.

Here is what one contractor had to say about dealing with a business that ran multiple lines:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Entrepreneur/comments/38y61n/benjamin_moore_franchise/
In my area there are no BM stand alone locations. I'm not sure what you're getting into, but I thought BM didn't operate their own retail stores. Maybe that's just where I'm from. Anyone that sells BM paint is an authorized retailer like Repcolite. When I buy paint from them they always seem to have to figure out how to charge my purchase to BM's customer care account. It's a hassle. Then, I get a receipt for list price so I don't even know what I'm paying until I get invoiced. I have had some charges take months to generate an invoice which makes my books a mess. I'm not sure if this kind of problem persists for others in different locations, but it's certainly a deal breaker for me.

A Canadian store that carries a second line to BM / Notice they do this as 2 separate companies.
http://www.benjaminmoorelondon.com/locations.php
One of the few Canadian store that carry a second line to BM / Notice they do this as 2 separate companies.
 
#36 ·
#38 · (Edited)
Just going to assume you didn't actually read any of the links you posted because they all imply the opposite of what your trying to get at. Or not quite grasping the concept of a locally owned franchise vs corporate franchise? Here is just one quote from acquizition.biz (seems reputable lol!):

Benjamin Moore provides all the advantages of a franchise, such as a buying group for complementary products, training, and a comprehensive marketing program, without the costs and obligations that are usually associated with franchise programs.
Example right now I have one store location (single outlet). I am considering opening up a second location about 50 miles from here in a different city. Suddenly I am a multiple outlet retailer and have become a franchise (is this a four letter word now?).


BTW If you are curious pricing is dependent on previous purchases YTD$. If I dropped my PPG stuff OR if I bought a 4th tint machine and another line of paint BM wouldn't bat an eye at my pricing. I'm not going to because I will get better pricing next year because I have been steadily increasing my BM purchases and now I will jump to larger price bracket. That's why you see 'exclusive' BM dealers. Why would you split that between brands and have lower margins because of it?


Its a small piece of the pie but If anything I would drop PPG and bring in more BM just to increase my buying power but at this point we have carried it for long that I'm sort of married to the product... Hope PPG changes them all to low voc so I can finally kill it off!:devil3:


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#39 ·
I give up! Clearly, it is because they are not a Franchise that the guy who owned one for 50 years does not know he does not own a franchise. They are sending people to meet them at the Franchise Expo because they are not a franchise, etc. Etc. etc.



I agree, you are all correct!



Everybody happy now?
 
#41 ·
BM attends the Franchise Expo to find investors for the BM Independent model. Where better to find investors than those people looking to drop coin into franchises. BM (no longer) used to own stores and even when it did, it was to protect the established market during periods of uncertainty usually related to succession issues. BM is not a franchise model. Franchises get to dictate certain aspects, exhibit a decent amount of control when it comes to marketing & operations, and charge a fee for managing these issues. BM does not charge any dealer a fee related to franchising and cannot force anyone to market / advertise whatsoever. Canada is no different, BUT there are very few multi-line dealers there. Perhaps, it's because BM is rather strong in Canada and it was wise to align with them? Much of this info can be found on BM's website when you indicate that you want to explore becoming a dealer. Any paint retailer (even competitors) can purchase Insl-X provided they opened an account.
 
#42 ·
@SWPB I did go on their website and saw only 2 options: An application to become a BM Dealer OR an application to convert your existing retail store to a BM Dealership. I even went so far as to fill in both applications so I could see all the pages which turned out to be pretty much the same except for existing store info. Then canceled before submitting.

Also, the guy that has had a BM store for 50 years and is now trying to sell the" FRANCHISE" is really to dumb to know it is not a franchise and is misleading potential buyers. Not that I much care about the issue one way or another. Nor am I sure that BM Canada plays by the same rules as BM USA. BUT as noted earlier on the thread. I'm done with the issue. I did not believe all the independent Canadian Paint stores were lying to me, but, that must be the case.
 
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