The Troble With Pricing Questions - Paint Talk - Professional Painting Contractors Forum
CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY, IT'S FREE!
Go Back   Paint Talk - Professional Painting Contractors Forum > Painting Forum > General Painting Discussion

Like Tree11Likes
  • 2 Post By jennifertemple
  • 2 Post By RH
  • 1 Post By PACman
  • 1 Post By thinkpainting/nick
  • 1 Post By Worker Bee
  • 1 Post By RH
  • 2 Post By RH
  • 1 Post By CApainter
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-26-2018, 12:55 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
jennifertemple's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,988
Rewards Points: 316
Thanks: 577
Thanked 417 Times in 285 Posts
View jennifertemple's Photo Album My Photos
Thumbs up The Trouble With Pricing Questions

We should have that "frowned upon" in the rules one reads on joining up! I just went back and reread them. It is not mentioned that I could see. That aside, it is a good rule! people can not know an other's market. Just as an example, in Big Ole TO I was up market in a good up market area. When I moved to my new small city: my rates could drop, I could have moved back to the city or I could commute 125 KM daily. A $5000 job in TO would be a $3000 in my area of Niagara Region. (I did not want to move back, commuting would be to painful so I got with the program, locally.)

If we were to give prices to others based on our own rates we might be killing their business because in their own neighborhood it might be a laughable charge and they would get little to no work, Or if they are in a really up market place they would be inundated as people think they'd found a fool.

We also can not know the caliber of the painter: Are they really at the standard we apply to ourselves? Is it just a roll & run guy or are they prepared to do all the niceties of good prep work. (This IS NOT a comment to reflect anyone on this site! My assumption is we are all pretty conscientious and always looking for ways to improve!)

Quoting and pricing are so different even from town to town in the same region, the differences between NFLD & California....!! If I just go as much as 30 KMs from here, my rates go up about 20%.
Gymschu and Worker Bee like this.

Last edited by jennifertemple; 04-26-2018 at 01:25 PM..
jennifertemple is online now   Reply With Quote

Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. PaintTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 04-26-2018, 01:22 PM   #2
RH
Moderator
 
RH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 18,646
Rewards Points: 5,720
Thanks: 11,648
Thanked 15,414 Times in 8,086 Posts
View RH's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Part of the issue lies in what type of questions are asked. For example, questions about how one might bid a job are fine (which actually could be considered a pricing question), and even discussions about a range in square foot amounts are generally allowed to stand. But questions about how much a specific job should cost are not. That’s why the canned response refers to “straight pricing questions” as being frowned upon. However, I tend to agree that some clarification on this in the rules wouldn’t hurt - other than to make the rules section that much bigger.
Gymschu and jennifertemple like this.
__________________
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read."

Groucho Marx
RH is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 01:29 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
PACman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: North central Ohio
Posts: 11,298
Rewards Points: 78
Thanks: 2,999
Thanked 4,706 Times in 3,174 Posts
View PACman's Photo Album My Photos
Default

and don't forget the people that always troll the thread and say "tree fiddy!" to all pricing questions! We won't mention any names.

In my area, the Amish drive down most of the mid to lower end prices. A lot depends on whether they can take a buggy to the job or if they can get someone to take them in a truck. They don't do a lot of business in the town where i have my store because of all the traffic, but outside of town they do a bit. AND they will ALWAYS buy the cheapest paint they can. ALWAYS! They used to crawl over each other at the True Value store i worked at during the bogo sales.
Gymschu likes this.
__________________
"One who dares not offend cannot be honest." Thomas Paine-patriot

"I'll have a double scotch with a twist of bourbon" Rodney Dangerfield
PACman is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 04-26-2018, 01:29 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
jennifertemple's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,988
Rewards Points: 316
Thanks: 577
Thanked 417 Times in 285 Posts
View jennifertemple's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Maybe a separate thread briefly outlining the policy rather than a "rule" might discourage the questions about how much for this job. They do seem to pop up on a fairly regular basis.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
In Time: "You learn that you really can endure...That you really are strong, And you really do have worth, And you learn and learn and learn..."
jennifertemple is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 04:41 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
thinkpainting/nick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,687
Rewards Points: 2,128
Thanks: 957
Thanked 1,392 Times in 705 Posts
View thinkpainting/nick's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Years ago we held a PDCA chapter ( invited non members as well) info and n pricing. The number of painters who had no clue on direct overhead, indirect overhead, break even pricing, profit on a job ie the year. Was mind blowing and still is. Market does bear pricing but certainly doesn’t mean the guys or gals who price what the market will bear are making money. On the contrary most aren’t. Ask me my rates I’ll tell you, ask me how I do an estimate it’s simple. We measure the work to be done and apply production rates and add the variables and wallla... bingo .. And yes I can SG ft a job any job and my sq ft rates come from my I said my rates and costs.

Len Fife seminar should be mandatory for all painters entering the trades.
dwallon60 likes this.
thinkpainting/nick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 10:34 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
Gymschu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Eastern Ohio (Appalachia)
Posts: 1,335
Rewards Points: 34
Thanks: 1,631
Thanked 817 Times in 447 Posts
View Gymschu's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Nick, you are "spot on." It would have benefitted me greatly to have been able to take advantage of a Len Fife seminar, or really, any quality estimating seminar or class. 40 years ago, a painter thought in terms of his hourly rate and gave little thought to "measuring the work." I even remember painters who charged "by the gallon" of paint used. I have survived, but barely. My defense against poor estimating was to keep overhead extremely low. That meant not buying a new vehicle, using equipment well past its life expectancy, and buying mid-grade paint so I didn't have to carry a tab on paint purchases.

Boy, was I stupid.
Gymschu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 10:38 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
CApainter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA
Posts: 14,203
Rewards Points: 1,546
Thanks: 11,179
Thanked 9,578 Times in 5,438 Posts
View CApainter's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkpainting/nick View Post
Years ago we held a PDCA chapter ( invited non members as well) info and n pricing. The number of painters who had no clue on direct overhead, indirect overhead, break even pricing, profit on a job ie the year. Was mind blowing and still is. Market does bear pricing but certainly doesn’t mean the guys or gals who price what the market will bear are making money. On the contrary most aren’t. Ask me my rates I’ll tell you, ask me how I do an estimate it’s simple. We measure the work to be done and apply production rates and add the variables and wallla... bingo .. And yes I can SG ft a job any job and my sq ft rates come from my I said my rates and costs.

Len Fife seminar should be mandatory for all painters entering the trades.
It seems pretty simple, provided all things being equal and above board. Charge according to what is sustainable in your particular region.

Unfortunately, it's the reach of social media that distorts the above, and creates jealousy, hostility, and rules needed to govern pricing questions.
CApainter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 10:50 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 218
Rewards Points: 436
Thanks: 22
Thanked 15 Times in 12 Posts
View Worker Bee's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Where thise gets really murky is comparing a 1 income household to a 2 person income household.

For instance, Painter A can charge X, works 2000 hours a year and provides generally good income and some spending money to the household. wife works full time decent job. all bills covered.

Painter B, single income source charges Y (more) because its the sole source of income.

Further, no two jobs are the same. doesnt matter where the job is, it could be two houses next to each other on the same street by the same builder, same floor plan. Damage to house A can be significantly more than house B. House B may have wierd exotic colors, ect...

Can you give a generalization of cost... ya... in some cases... but in most cases you really need to 'see' the job and what it entails (another reason why i refuse commercial work)

Plus, whos doing the work? blow and go ghetto painting? or someone who does level 5 work? that alone can swing the price by thousands based on the job...

and I never under stood price per square foot... how can anyone make any money at that?
jennifertemple likes this.
Worker Bee is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Worker Bee For This Useful Post:
jennifertemple (04-27-2018)
Old 04-26-2018, 11:39 PM   #9
RH
Moderator
 
RH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 18,646
Rewards Points: 5,720
Thanks: 11,648
Thanked 15,414 Times in 8,086 Posts
View RH's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CApainter View Post
It seems pretty simple, provided all things being equal and above board. Charge according to what is sustainable in your particular region.

Unfortunately, it's the reach of social media that distorts the above, and creates jealousy, hostility, and rules needed to govern pricing questions.
Or, that variables such as levels of prep, different techniques, working speeds, degrees of thoroughness, and geographical factors (to name a few), makes giving accurate and useful answers practically impossible.
jennifertemple likes this.
__________________
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read."

Groucho Marx
RH is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2018, 01:59 AM   #10
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 162
Rewards Points: 10
Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
View mackhomie's Photo Album My Photos
Default

This seems to have been prompted by my thread. I'm actually a little surprised, given that it was almost a charity job and that the request was for what people thought other painters might submit--and a ballpark estimate of that amount. How is that against the rules? Asking how much money a guy might lose at the casino shouldn't get anyone cited for gambling, no?
mackhomie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2018, 02:19 AM   #11
RH
Moderator
 
RH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 18,646
Rewards Points: 5,720
Thanks: 11,648
Thanked 15,414 Times in 8,086 Posts
View RH's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Shouldn’t be any surprise. Any thread asking how much to charge for a specific job will be shut down.
That’s also the last I will say publically about the action I took. If you want to discuss it further, PM me. Or, if you wish to complain, contact admin.
__________________
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read."

Groucho Marx
RH is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2018, 09:26 AM   #12
Senior Member
 
CApainter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA
Posts: 14,203
Rewards Points: 1,546
Thanks: 11,179
Thanked 9,578 Times in 5,438 Posts
View CApainter's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RH View Post
Or, that variables such as levels of prep, different techniques, working speeds, degrees of thoroughness, and geographical factors (to name a few), makes giving accurate and useful answers practically impossible.
I was referring to the geographical differences in terms of economy. In terms of competing, as it relates to painting logistics and process, those are generally only relative at the local level. Unfortunately, the reach of social media propagates competition at a global level, which is ridiculous for a mom and pop paint shop in Iowa.

If you're happy with what you earn, keep it to yourself.
jennifertemple likes this.

Last edited by CApainter; 04-27-2018 at 09:31 AM..
CApainter is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
estimating, priceing, quotes

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pricing PaPainter724 Business, Marketing, and Sales 10 03-21-2018 12:26 PM
thinking about residential but concerned with pricing kanadaeh General Painting Discussion 20 06-22-2016 12:56 AM
Soft Wash and Down Streaming Questions Pete Martin the Painter Pressure Washing 12 02-25-2016 06:33 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:52 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Our Pro Sites Network
ContractorTalk.com | DrywallTalk.com | ElectricianTalk.com | HVACSite.com | PlumbingZone.com | RoofingTalk.com