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Old 07-22-2011, 12:55 AM   #41
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Where have you been?
I'm a 4th generation painter.
I walk the walk, talk the talk. I've done every damn thing that you and everyone here has. I've painted, stained, sprayed, hung all types of vinyl. I've done residential, commercial and industrial.

Why would I want to go back to painting when I love what I do???

Listen, if you want to test me, give me a call and we'll make a go of it. I enjoy talking to other contractors...
Plain and simple, have you owned and operated a business? Or have you always been a employee, sub or whatever you want to call it (depend on other PC for your check). I only ask cause I think it play's a huge part in your advise. Whether you agree or not, being a estimator on someone else's dime is far easier than estimating on your own dime, as time and money is more of an issue. I believe you give solid advise Harry, however what you are up against compares very little to what a business owner is up against. I am not doubting your experience in your areas, I believe you can sling a brush, as well as being a good estimator. I just think your role far differs from role of owning, managing, performing on the job and the official duties.
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Old 07-22-2011, 08:00 AM   #42
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Plain and simple, have you owned and operated a business? Or have you always been a employee, sub or whatever you want to call it (depend on other PC for your check). I only ask cause I think it play's a huge part in your advise. Whether you agree or not, being a estimator on someone else's dime is far easier than estimating on your own dime, as time and money is more of an issue. I believe you give solid advise Harry, however what you are up against compares very little to what a business owner is up against. I am not doubting your experience in your areas, I believe you can sling a brush, as well as being a good estimator. I just think your role far differs from role of owning, managing, performing on the job and the official duties.
We ran up to 40 men in our family business...

But let's get back to the advice thing. if you feel that someone can't offer you advice without having swung a brush, you're sadly mistaken and probably should change you're thinking.

When I came on these boards, I touted my family's experiences on them and used to think that there was no way that someone could tell me how to run my business if they never swung a brush...I was wrong.

Running a business has nothing to do with swinging a brush...apples and oranges.

As far as being on someone else's dime...ANYONE and I mean ANYONE who knows of me or my family knows that we've always gone way beyond the call of duty. We made many people rich and sunk no one. It's not about taking, fella, it's about giving...and we always give more than what was paid for...that's what we do.

You don't paint for 103 years and estimate for 90 by accident...
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Old 07-22-2011, 10:15 AM   #43
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Harry, I never said someone can't run a business if they never slapped paint on a surface. I know a few cats like such myself. The fact you come from a generation of painters doesn't impress me much, its interesting and cool, but not impressive. Some on this very board can make that claim, and they embarrass the industry. Yet their are 1st gen painters that blow them away. I grew up under and learned under a 2nd gen painter. Does that mean I have more or less experience? No, I don't discount your experience, I think it can be valuable to these boards, your advise is insightful. Concerning these 2 threads, I just disagree with your methods for a owner operator small repaint business, it could be catastrophic to them.

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Old 07-22-2011, 10:28 AM   #44
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Plain and simple, have you owned and operated a business? Or have you always been a employee, sub or whatever you want to call it (depend on other PC for your check). I only ask cause I think it play's a huge part in your advise. Whether you agree or not, being a estimator on someone else's dime is far easier than estimating on your own dime, as time and money is more of an issue. I believe you give solid advise Harry, however what you are up against compares very little to what a business owner is up against. I am not doubting your experience in your areas, I believe you can sling a brush, as well as being a good estimator. I just think your role far differs from role of owning, managing, performing on the job and the official duties.
I don't agree with that. Being a bad estimator is no different then being a bad painter. You run out of customers. You have to have a mad love of an industry (and have earned a lot of respect) to stay in it that long.
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Old 07-22-2011, 10:42 AM   #45
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Who said anything about being a bad estimator? What I'm disagreeing with is the method for a certain business model. I'm not questioning his experience or saying he is good or bad at all.
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Old 07-22-2011, 01:15 PM   #46
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Harry, I never said someone can't run a business if they never slapped paint on a surface. I know a few cats like such myself. The fact you come from a generation of painters doesn't impress me much, its interesting and cool, but not impressive. Some on this very board can make that claim, and they embarrass the industry. Yet their are 1st gen painters that blow them away. I grew up under and learned under a 2nd gen painter. Does that mean I have more or less experience? No, I don't discount your experience, I think it can be valuable to these boards, your advise is insightful. Concerning these 2 threads, I just disagree with your methods for a owner operator small repaint business, it could be catastrophic to them.

You're a hoot...
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Last edited by RCP; 07-22-2011 at 01:22 PM.. Reason: fix quote
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Old 07-22-2011, 01:21 PM   #47
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Who said anything about being a bad estimator? What I'm disagreeing with is the method for a certain business model. I'm not questioning his experience or saying he is good or bad at all.
First off Ewing, I have no clue as to what you describe as a "business model". I don't believe I've ever thrown that out. I work with all sorts of companies who have numerous types of business models.

I'm not just an estimator. I take people like you and help them put more food on their table or take an extra vacation now and then. I help contractors become better contractors.

I also could care less what your thought regarding what I've done in my life, are, lol. I'm here simply to help...remember that. If you aren't interested, that's fine but unless you want to call me to see what the deal is, don't keep banging away at the keyboard with your doubts.

For christ sake, every friggin two weeks, one of you guys does the same damn thing...and most of you could use the help!

I've "done it all" man and if you need any help, call me...
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Old 07-22-2011, 02:18 PM   #48
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I'm not asking for your help, nor am I wanting you to prove yourself. I just questioned your methods you offered to a business specific business model. I find it fascinating you think "most of us need YOUR help" lol

Fact is the method you advised, at one time you had to pay big bucks for. Why! Cause it was designed for mid to large size contractors. Contractors that could handle it, have 2-6 estimators on payroll, each plugging 2-3 bids a day, ranging from 50-500 employees. A owner operator can not compete with that other than price. No biggy Harry. Carry on.

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Old 07-22-2011, 03:09 PM   #49
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I'm not asking for your help, nor am I wanting you to prove yourself. I just questioned your methods you offered to a business specific business model. I find it fascinating you think "most of us need YOUR help" lol

Fact is the method you advised, at one time you had to pay big bucks for. Why! Cause it was designed for mid to large size contractors. Contractors that could handle it, have 2-6 estimators on payroll, each plugging 2-3 bids a day, ranging from 50-500 employees. A owner operator can not compete with that other than price. No biggy Harry. Carry on.
What I'm saying is...if you disagree, move on. There's no need to try to discredit anyone in the process.

You tell me what the heck you're talking about and I'll answer to it. At this moment, it's still not clear. I've offered a lot of information here...clue me in please.

If you don't need help that's fine but others do and my ideas do work and I offer them for free, here.

Again, clue me in so I can rebut your post...
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Old 07-22-2011, 03:28 PM   #50
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No discredit. I have said many times, I appreciate your post.
Thanks for your info. you share here. I can disagree with you, as disagreement is a part of discussion

Moving on now
Gabe
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Old 07-22-2011, 04:09 PM   #51
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No discredit. I have said many times, I appreciate your post.
Thanks for your info. you share here. I can disagree with you, as disagreement is a part of discussion

Moving on now
Gabe
I agree that disagreeing is okay, lol.

I'm asking you...what exactly are you disagreeing on?
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Old 07-22-2011, 04:12 PM   #52
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OMG, if you two knuckleheads start disagreeing about disagreeing I'm gonna thump you both!
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Old 07-22-2011, 04:19 PM   #53
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I agree that disagreeing is okay, lol.

I'm asking you...what exactly are you disagreeing on?
I think this has exhausted itself. I already posted it 3 or 4 time.
As I said moving on.....
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OMG, if you two knuckleheads start disagreeing about disagreeing I'm gonna thump you both!
What if I'm starting to agree now

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Old 07-22-2011, 04:27 PM   #54
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I think this has exhausted itself. I already posted it 3 or 4 time.
As I said moving on.....


What if I'm starting to agree now

So...ya won't post exactly what you disagree about but you definitely disagree?

You're alright man...

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Old 07-22-2011, 05:00 PM   #55
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I did!

For someone that doesn't want to be pounding on your keyboard, there seem so be a whole lot of pounding going on.
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Old 07-22-2011, 10:02 PM   #56
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EWP I get the point that it is harder for the money man due to the bottom line being on his/her shoulders alone. I think Harry probably understands that as well. It is like having an accountant trying to operate a paint business. One of those would rather finger paint an entire house so he doesn't have to pay for a brush. They don't understand the man hours saved by spraying v/s brushing. All they know is it costs money to buy that!!!! ARGH!

It is still good to receive the input even though we, the burden takers, ultimately make the day to day decisions based upon facts that the estimator or accountant don't know about. Like relationships with GC's and building long term relationships with the one in a million good ones. Whatever the next move is based upon unique facts in the playing field that we know about with that specific piece in the game of chess. So the input is still good nonetheless. I am pretty sure Harry realizes that as well. I assume someone as successful as you realizes that from your experience. Just assuming this but......There are so many strategies in The Art of War it is good to have options. I want to be as big as you tomorrow. It would mean sure failure. I came to that realization again in this thread.

Anyway thanks for debating with each other I learned me some things.
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Old 07-23-2011, 01:05 AM   #57
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EWP I get the point that it is harder for the money man due to the bottom line being on his/her shoulders alone. I think Harry probably understands that as well. It is like having an accountant trying to operate a paint business. One of those would rather finger paint an entire house so he doesn't have to pay for a brush. They don't understand the man hours saved by spraying v/s brushing. All they know is it costs money to buy that!!!! ARGH!

It is still good to receive the input even though we, the burden takers, ultimately make the day to day decisions based upon facts that the estimator or accountant don't know about. Like relationships with GC's and building long term relationships with the one in a million good ones. Whatever the next move is based upon unique facts in the playing field that we know about with that specific piece in the game of chess. So the input is still good nonetheless. I am pretty sure Harry realizes that as well. I assume someone as successful as you realizes that from your experience. Just assuming this but......There are so many strategies in The Art of War it is good to have options. I want to be as big as you tomorrow. It would mean sure failure. I came to that realization again in this thread.

Anyway thanks for debating with each other I learned me some things.
There is no debate if the other side refuses to state their case when asked politely, 3 or more times.

I fluffed Ewing off because RCP had to butt in and call people knuckleheads...not too cool since "we ain't all from yer town"

You said... "facts that the estimator or accountant don't know about."

I challenge you or anyone to call me on that. I guarantee that there is very little that you could approach me on regarding the painting business that I don't have or had my hands in.

I was spraying open joist ceilings when I was 15. I was estimating when I was 17.

I'll be 50 at the end of August...
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Old 07-23-2011, 01:40 AM   #58
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You're a hoot...

Harry - Please keep the name calling to a minimum. This is a professional place where we try to keep that type of shenanigans to the DIY forums.

Thank you

Pat
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Old 07-23-2011, 01:47 AM   #59
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Harry - Please keep the name calling to a minimum. This is a professional place where we try to keep that type of shenanigans to the DIY forums.

Thank you

Pat
Pat, if you read up you'll find that my reference to "a hoot" means that someone is funny.

If you have a problem with that, I don't know what to tell you...
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Old 07-23-2011, 02:30 AM   #60
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Harry I was seeing both of your positions not questioning your talents.

Although.

You don't know my specific positions with my banker this or next week like I do. You don't know my competitors comings or goings in my specific area like I do. You don't know my suppliers inner workings in management and their relationships with my competitors like I do. My relations with my customers and my competitions specific actions in attempting to aquire them as well as mine in trying to aquire theirs. etc..... You don't know my next move because I am not even completely sure what it is. The unexpected opportunity may or may not present itself and my next move is based upon those and many other factors.

I myself don't doubt your capabilities and talents. The 'facts' I am speaking of relate to certain aforementioned unique inside workings, not your understanding of the business in general. I would like to one day be able to afford your services. Come stay at my house for a month. Get to know the market here. Advise me all you want. Yea right.... I can't afford you for a day.

I think for me or anyone to brush off your advice would be foolish. I think for anyone to blindly accept and risk their livliehood based upon it would be foolish as well. I think EWP is just saying it's a little more stressful when it's his own money involved. Surely you understand that having been there yourself. I understand that and agree as well.

I wasn't proposing a challenge Harry. Just butting in a conversation with two seemingly impressively experienced and knowledgeable people seeing if I can fit in. hahaha Different people can view the same thing differently, but I interpreted Ewing as just saying what I said in my second paragraph of this post. Except for the 'business model' thing. That is my understanding anyway.

Since presenting some of your past accomplishments as a contractor I think it is safe to say you understand the stresses of risking your own money.

I like boxing. A lot. The trainer is every bit as vested as the boxer to win the match. Each has their own way of feeling the pain in loss as well as sharing the goodness of victory. Even though the trainer knows the right things to do and ways to make his fighter win, the fighter is still the one in the ring taking body shots. Both of their reputations are just as important. The trainer may have been in the ring in days before but he isn't at that moment going through the same mental stresses that affect decisions made by the fighter during the fight. The fighter takes the training, goes in the ring and wins or loses. ---- If the PC get's KO'd, his family suffers. If the PC wins he takes care of his family. Either way the trainer(teacher) has a job to go to tomorrow.

I think that explains it somewhat.

Man I love teachers. I was complimenting you earlier. A teacher with field experience is even better. Teach me mister. How do I make my business fruitful for my family?

With that in mind, you can't outpaint me. Just sayin.
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