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Old 03-06-2018, 09:15 AM   #1
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Massachusetts has the paint care/recycling bill on the table. I like the idea. I see holes in it however. They say it's not a "tax" but those of us who live in taxachusetts, know a tax when we see one. I am somewhat familiar with the program, not entirely.

Retailer takes payment upfront for the "fee" when the paint is purchased to go towards the end of life recycling. This fee is not refundable. The entire can is used. The "fee" is kept by the governing powers. How is that not a tax? Does the fee cover the recycling of a full liquid gallon? half gallon? pint? Larger measures obviously cost more to process. Even if you recycle 1/2 of the gallon, they are still profiting 1/2 of the "fee", if in fact the fee covers a full liquid gallon.

Retailers can choose to be drop off locations. Not one that I have talked to has any intention of becoming one. It takes up valuable space we use to generate cash flow. (Selling space, storage of goods, added fire suppression systems, etc.) If I could charge a storage fee, either to the state, paint care company, consumer, that would help offset the costs, but still wouldn't be worth it. It takes an employee I pay to process the returned gallon from drop off to pickup. This would increase my payroll year round which is never good for business.

Do our insurance rates go up? We are storing more hazardous materials than we had previously in a confined space making the potential for accidents increase. Does OSHA regulate this program at all, the state, fire dept? Logic would dictate that not only would the "fee" increase the price, but the need for increased insurances all around.

From a business standpoint I would rather sell a bag of speedy dry or hardener, which I see going away when this is passed. From a consumer standpoint I see the need for easier or any paint recycling. But right now I see holes that need filling.
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Old 03-06-2018, 09:52 AM   #2
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You want this program!!

We have it in Cali, for at least 8 years? Think of it like a CRV fee for soda cans, but without the redemption. You pay .35 a gallon, .75 a five on each purchase, its a separate line item. Its a small thing, you pass it to the customer as part of material cost. Then at the end of the job, leave the customer with all or some of the leftover paint. If they have any old paint in the garage, I just tell them I will take it for recycling, the new replaces the old.
What you will find is most small dealers will not becoming a recycler due to space. Your largest suppliers will as they have to, SW, PPG, larger regional guys. For some reason, HD and Lowes don't, even though they are huge suppliers of paint (waste).
The only problem I see as a program for states where you are from, I can't believe any of the old paint that is turned in would actually be useful? With all the freeze stuff you go through, most paint would be crap. Here in CA, all turned in paint is either made into new recycled paint or incinerated.

EDIT: I see you are a retailer. You wouldn't be a drop off location, but would be responsible for collecting the fee. As a painter its a great deal, so much less material to deal with.

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Old 03-06-2018, 09:57 AM   #3
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We have it here and I think it’s great. Call it a tax, a fee, whatever you want but you really can’t expect to have something like this and not have a way to pay for it. The fee/tax up front works well because then there’s no disincentive to drop off a product for recycling rather than dump it in a landfill, or worse, the woods.

As far as having a place to return them, never seemed to be an issue here. And with two of them being paint suppliers (likely where at least one will end up being in your area) I go there anyway and it’s no big deal to bring in paint now and then. I know it sure beats having to keep stuff until the next hazardous waste drop event.

Really, we have had this in place quite a few years now and personally I have nothing negative to say about it.
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Old 03-06-2018, 10:05 AM   #4
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You want this program!!

We have it in Cali, for at least 8 years? Think of it like a CRV fee for soda cans, but without the redemption. You pay .35 a gallon, .75 a five on each purchase, its a separate line item. Its a small thing, you pass it to the customer as part of material cost. Then at the end of the job, leave the customer with all or some of the leftover paint. If they have any old paint in the garage, I just tell them I will take it for recycling, the new replaces the old.
What you will find is most small dealers will not becoming a recycler due to space. Your largest suppliers will as they have to, SW, PPG, larger regional guys. For some reason, HD and Lowes don't, even though they are huge suppliers of paint (waste).
The only problem I see as a program for states where you are from, I can't believe any of the old paint that is turned in would actually be useful? With all the freeze stuff you go through, most paint would be crap. Here in CA, all turned in paint is either made into new recycled paint or incinerated.

EDIT: I see you are a retailer. You wouldn't be a drop off location, but would be responsible for collecting the fee. As a painter its a great deal, so much less material to deal with.

Not sure about that last part.

Two of our three drops are retailers (Sw and Miller Paints) and neither are particularly large establishments. I can’t speak with certainty, but I think the recycled products are picked up on a fairly regular basis (weekly?) so returned products don’t typically pile up too much. Of course, things may work differently with the program California has, but have to think it’s pretty similar.
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Old 03-06-2018, 11:38 AM   #5
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It sucks for small retailers. It's a money losing proposition all around. If they are going to mandate these programs they need to reimburse the collection centers a lot more than they do now. Even the big companies are loosing a lot of money in the states that have this program. It takes up a lot more labor, space, transportation dollars than they usually plan for. The fee should be closer to $4-5 per gallon in reality because as it is all it is doing is causing price increases like every other regulation does. The idea is for it to be self supporting but from what i am hearing it falls way short of that in the states where it has been implemented.
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Old 03-06-2018, 12:27 PM   #6
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I am certainly no expert- only really see it from my side. So I called up one of the two paint retailers in our town to get their take on it. Spoke to an assistant manager in one, he said the time it takes to accept and place the returned products is negligible. Usually customers bring them in, they take them at the counter and walk them back to put them in a cart. From the cart, the items are taken out back where they have a 20' by 20' storage area. Originally this was only fenced but the recycling company paid to have it roofed over so it would meet the necessary safety guidelines.

The products are placed in one of four large (think he said 3' by 3') lidded and spill proof plastic totes which are supplied by the recycling company. The company typically comes by once a week to pick them up but in slower times of the year they may call first to determine if a pick up is necessary.

He loves the program. Says it solves the issue (mostly) of people orphaning cans of paint out side the building when they are closed. Not to mention less crap going into landfills or being dumped in other undesirable locations. Asked him if he felt they got reimbursed enough and he said he felt it was fair - although if they suddenly told them they would be getting paid more, he wouldn't complain. But seriously, he feels it is a great program and relatively hassle and trouble free for the benefits he feels they get from it: it's good for the planet, good for their image, and they get potential customers coming into their store when they bring in stuff to unload.
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Old 03-06-2018, 02:06 PM   #7
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I am certainly no expert- only really see it from my side. So I called up one of the two paint retailers in our town to get their take on it. Spoke to an assistant manager in one, he said the time it takes to accept and place the returned products is negligible. Usually customers bring them in, they take them at the counter and walk them back to put them in a cart. From the cart, the items are taken out back where they have a 20' by 20' storage area. Originally this was only fenced but the recycling company paid to have it roofed over so it would meet the necessary safety guidelines.

The products are placed in one of four large (think he said 3' by 3') lidded and spill proof plastic totes which are supplied by the recycling company. The company typically comes by once a week to pick them up but in slower times of the year they may call first to determine if a pick up is necessary.

He loves the program. Says it solves the issue (mostly) of people orphaning cans of paint out side the building when they are closed. Not to mention less crap going into landfills or being dumped in other undesirable locations. Asked him if he felt they got reimbursed enough and he said he felt it was fair - although if they suddenly told them they would be getting paid more, he wouldn't complain. But seriously, he feels it is a great program and relatively hassle and trouble free for the benefits he feels they get from it: it's good for the planet, good for their image, and they get potential customers coming into their store when they bring in stuff to unload.
So it's getting put in a "non-reportable hazardous waste" tote and taken to the dump is what you are telling me. That sounds kind of like every other recycling program in the country. As in....NOT recycled! Almost none of the cardboard or paper sent to recycling programs is ever actually recycled. I know, i've seen what actually happens. It gets taken to the dump just like everything else because it is way too expensive to actually recycle it. Do you want to know how PPG "re-works" latex paint?

Not going to get in to that......no way. That is a political time bomb just waiting to happen. Lets just say it isn't being treated the way the politicos have convinced the voters it is going to be treated. Eventually reality sets in and people realize it is not economically viable to re-claim paint. A very small percentage is actually able to be re-cycled and actually is.
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Old 03-06-2018, 03:34 PM   #8
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So it's getting put in a "non-reportable hazardous waste" tote and taken to the dump is what you are telling me. That sounds kind of like every other recycling program in the country. As in....NOT recycled! Almost none of the cardboard or paper sent to recycling programs is ever actually recycled. I know, i've seen what actually happens. It gets taken to the dump just like everything else because it is way too expensive to actually recycle it. Do you want to know how PPG "re-works" latex paint?

Not going to get in to that......no way. That is a political time bomb just waiting to happen. Lets just say it isn't being treated the way the politicos have convinced the voters it is going to be treated. Eventually reality sets in and people realize it is not economically viable to re-claim paint. A very small percentage is actually able to be re-cycled and actually is.
Not sure how you got all that from my posts. And it sounds like you have made up your mind that it’s a not a viable program that it can’t work. If so, nothing I write is likely to change your mind. But, if you are interested in more info, here is the website of the company that administers the program here in Oregon: https://www.paintcare.org/paintcare-states/oregon/ .
Of course, if you are dead set against something like this I’m sure you can find all sorts of things to object to. And I will admit that no plan will be without it’s weak points. But much like the banning of products containing lead, the development of zero VOC paints, and the move towards the safer and less toxic waterbased products, the handwriting is on the wall IMO. I would think most retailers would realize that an awareness and active participation in any program such as this is ultimately going to be a benefit to the industry overall, and to their business.

I also think that all of us, manufacturers, retailers, contractors, and customers, have to consider our part in doing what we can to deal with the waste and disposal aspects of the products we make, sell, and use. Sure we can all just simply stand and rail against the perceived unfairness and ineffectiveness of a program such as this - but until someone comes up with something better...

Also, if you are even remotely interested, PM me and I will get you the contact info for the guy I spoke with this morning at one of my local participating retail paint stores. I’m sure he wouldn’t mind more thoroughly sharing his take on the subject.
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Old 03-06-2018, 03:50 PM   #9
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Not sure how you got all that from my posts. And it sounds like you have made up your mind that it’s a not a viable program that it can’t work. If so, nothing I write is likely to change your mind. But, if you are interested in more info, here is the website of the company that administers the program here in Oregon: https://www.paintcare.org/paintcare-states/oregon/ .
Of course, if you are dead set against something like this I’m sure you can find all sorts of things to object to. And I will admit that no plan will be without it’s weak points. But much like the banning of products containing lead, zero VOC paints, and the march towards safer and less toxic waterbased products, the handwriting is on the wall IMO. I would think most retailers would realize that an awareness and active participation in any program such as this is ultimately going to be a benefit to the industry overall, and to their business.

I also think that all of us, manufacturers, retailers, contractors, and customers, have to consider our part in doing what we can to deal with the waste and disposal aspects of the products we make, sell, and use. Sure we can all just simply stand and rail against the perceived unfairness and ineffectiveness of a program such as this - but until someone comes up with something better...

Also, if you are even remotely interested, PM me and I will get you the contact info for the guy I spoke with this morning at one of my local participating retail paint stores. I’m sure he wouldn’t mind more thoroughly sharing his take on the subject.
I'm not against it i just don't think it is being administered quite the way most people think it is. Most of those recycle programs in the past have turned out to be quite fraudulent. Just don't want people thinking it's going to save the planet that's all. I'm sure it is better than nothing but i'm also sure it falls way short of expectations. There are alternatives, but they would be next to impossible to implement them because they would require some effort from the consumers and they don't want to be inconvenienced to save the planet. Just dump it off on the paint manufacturers and the government. That is never a good long term solution to anything.
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Old 03-06-2018, 03:59 PM   #10
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Here is another link. This one is to Metro paint - the main company that seems to be involved in this region's recycling of the turned in paint products. Their web site has a pretty good video showing the in factory process: https://www.oregonmetro.gov/tools-li...ome/metropaint
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Old 03-06-2018, 06:53 PM   #11
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Colorado has it, I like it and use it.
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Old 03-06-2018, 07:29 PM   #12
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Here is another link. This one is to Metro paint - the main company that seems to be involved in this region's recycling of the turned in paint products. Their web site has a pretty good video showing the in factory process: https://www.oregonmetro.gov/tools-li...ome/metropaint
I did a college paper on that paint many,many moons ago. It's actually a good product if you can get over the smell.lol. it just smells like old miller paint. Lots of it.
What I find amazing is that they don't tint anything. They mix up similar colors to get their 8 or 10 colors and it comes out the same every single time. I used it on a rehab 6 unit building aboutv10 yrs ago and I'm telling ya, I was impressed with it. Great coverage, ez to use, etc. Truly paint and primer in 1. They just dump it all in, strain it all, mix it all up and bam. There ya go. Usable product that's good because it's got every product and manufacturer under the sun in it and all kinds of primer, too. And it's all the same sheen. Satin.
Anywho, it's like $50/ 5g or it was back then anyway...
I saw some at a local miller up here I'mn Seattle not long ago.
I'd use it again on the right project...none of our customers would even entertain the idea though. Eh--to each their own. I do wish Seattle had that program though. We sure could use it.

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Old 03-06-2018, 10:54 PM   #13
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It sucks for small retailers. It's a money losing proposition all around. If they are going to mandate these programs they need to reimburse the collection centers a lot more than they do now. Even the big companies are loosing a lot of money in the states that have this program. It takes up a lot more labor, space, transportation dollars than they usually plan for. The fee should be closer to $4-5 per gallon in reality because as it is all it is doing is causing price increases like every other regulation does. The idea is for it to be self supporting but from what i am hearing it falls way short of that in the states where it has been implemented.
Total misinformation!! The retailer pays nothing for this program, short of actually putting the cans in the box? Its a cardboard box with a plastic bag liner, that's like 6x6x4, it doesn't take up that much space. When the box is full, there is a lid and you just call the collection company. They pick up and ship to the recycling center. The paint care fee pays for the entire program, its self sufficient. I don't know where you get your information, but when I ran stores while this started and during, it did not cost my SW store anything.
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Old 03-06-2018, 11:00 PM   #14
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I'm not against it i just don't think it is being administered quite the way most people think it is. Most of those recycle programs in the past have turned out to be quite fraudulent. Just don't want people thinking it's going to save the planet that's all. I'm sure it is better than nothing but i'm also sure it falls way short of expectations. There are alternatives, but they would be next to impossible to implement them because they would require some effort from the consumers and they don't want to be inconvenienced to save the planet. Just dump it off on the paint manufacturers and the government. That is never a good long term solution to anything.
Here is a list of all the places in the country that sell recycled paint from this program. Paint Care is the program in the states that we are talking about. I don't think this falls short of expectations and it was easy to implement. As a consumer, it can't be any easier to dispose of unwanted paint. You don't even need a receipt, it just needs a label and cannot be from a short list of non-accepted materials. ie. spray cans, epoxy,
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Old 03-07-2018, 09:25 AM   #15
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so my experience in actually trying to recycle paint for 8 years counts for nothing? And weekly trips to the "recycling center" to watch paint get taken right from our truck and put on the landfill truck means nothing? It's easy to make a video to prove a point or garner some money from do-gooders and the government. If you are recycling paint in California for example, it gets put in the 6x6x4 standard lined cardboard tote (a well known item in the waste disposal word, btw), taken to a "recycling center", put on a truck to Arkansas, and thrown in an incinerator more often than not. What i am saying is that the amount of paint that can physically be recycled is probably less than 10% of all the paint that gets collected. You don't have to believe me now, but it will eventually come to light just like all of the plastic bottle, aluminum can, cardboard recycling programs that have been discovered to be BS cash grabs. But 10% is something i guess. It would be much more effective if consumers stopped returning paint for the lamest reasons and companies like Menard's wouldn't advertise that they will take back their paint for any reason. It just encourages consumers to waste paint like never before. Menard's takes back the paint, turns in the total to the manufacturers for a credit, and takes it to their Holiday City, Ohio location where it gets "processed" onto another truck to be taken to a landfill near Toledo. Thousand's of unnecessarily wasted gallons of paint every month because they have a credibility issue with their paint department?
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Old 03-07-2018, 10:23 AM   #16
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so my experience in actually trying to recycle paint for 8 years counts for nothing? And weekly trips to the "recycling center" to watch paint get taken right from our truck and put on the landfill truck means nothing? It's easy to make a video to prove a point or garner some money from do-gooders and the government. If you are recycling paint in California for example, it gets put in the 6x6x4 standard lined cardboard tote (a well known item in the waste disposal word, btw), taken to a "recycling center", put on a truck to Arkansas, and thrown in an incinerator more often than not. What i am saying is that the amount of paint that can physically be recycled is probably less than 10% of all the paint that gets collected. You don't have to believe me now, but it will eventually come to light just like all of the plastic bottle, aluminum can, cardboard recycling programs that have been discovered to be BS cash grabs. But 10% is something i guess. It would be much more effective if consumers stopped returning paint for the lamest reasons and companies like Menard's wouldn't advertise that they will take back their paint for any reason. It just encourages consumers to waste paint like never before. Menard's takes back the paint, turns in the total to the manufacturers for a credit, and takes it to their Holiday City, Ohio location where it gets "processed" onto another truck to be taken to a landfill near Toledo. Thousand's of unnecessarily wasted gallons of paint every month because they have a credibility issue with their paint department?
Thanks PAC. Your experiences and point of view have totally convinced me that the recycling program we have here is actually a big scam. From now on I refuse to buy into the process and everything I would have taken there will go into our landfill, or maybe just into that stream we have behind our house, depending on how I feel at the time. I appreciate you opening my eyes to the truth.
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Old 03-07-2018, 11:46 AM   #17
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Thanks PAC. Your experiences and point of view have totally convinced me that the recycling program we have here is actually a big scam. From now on I refuse to buy into the process and everything I would have taken there will go into our landfill, or maybe just into that stream we have behind our house, depending on how I feel at the time. I appreciate you opening my eyes to the truth.
sorry. But what you really need to do is keep pressing your local politicians to monitor the systems and not let themselves or their constituents to be taken in by a false narrative. The impact recycling programs have is actually quite negligible, and they are pushed by people who are pretty hypocritical about saving the earth. They just want someone else to "take care of" the problem. "just take this paint away, i bought 10 gallons because i thought i liked the color" happens way more often than people outside of the stores thinks it happens. Maybe not so often at an SW or a "real" paint store, but it happens way too often at the box stores. Consumers in general have to start being less self important and start "consuming" and wasting less for there to be any real significant ecological impact. Buy better paint that lasts longer and make sure you will be able to live with the color longer than a year or two. And while we're at it, if we can't get the average American consumer to stop buying huge SUV's and trading them in every three years to get the latest trendy model, any ecological impact of recycling paint is pointless. It's just a feel good option, nothing more.

So if it makes you feel good that you are doing something positive for the ecology then fine, have at it. But i myself have been in situations and positions in my career that leave me with no delusions about the effectiveness of paint recycling. If it was such a great idea, the government and the environmentalist lobbies wouldn't have to force it on us and create legislation to fund the programs. SW and PPG would have done it themselves years ago at the behest of consumers if they thought it was effective.

Just like electric cars. They don't actually do anything for the ecology! They just move the consuming of resources away from the people who want to feel good about reducing pollution and using up fossil fuels to a power plant in the middle of nowhere. The mining of the rare earth elements needed to make those batteries is causing the greatest ecological disaster the earth has ever seen. But since the people who buy the electric cars never see it, and environmentalists never complain about it, it doesn't exist. People can return paint for any reason if they don't "like" it to a box store. It's all the same. And setting up collection sites for "unused" paint isn't a big step away from that, because how much of that paint being turned in is being turned in just as a matter of convenience by people who "just didn't like it"? So a small portion of it gets recycled. So what. If the consumers actually gave a 5hit many of them wouldn't have bought it in the first place!
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Old 03-07-2018, 05:35 PM   #18
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PAC, I’ve been around long enough to know that there is always the chance that something that is touted to be some great thing turns out to be a dud, or worse, an outright lie and scam. And it may turn out at some time in the future that the recycling programs could turn out that way as well. But still, until that is proven to be so, being able to recycle excess paints, or at least a percentage of them, still seems like a more than acceptable option.

I have to ask - you have shared some of your negative experiences with regards to paint recycling, but have you actually had any first hand experience with Paint Care, the company that administers it here in Oregon and in most of the other states with similar programs? In other words, do you have first hand knowledge that they have actually been involved in pretending to recycle paints while in reality they are simply dumping it in landfills? Or is all your experience with other companies or services unconnected to them?

If you have not had actual experience with PC, have you ever bothered to actually investigate them and try and determine if they are legit or are you just not interested in doing so? Or, are you simply convinced they are all fakes and not worth it?
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Old 03-07-2018, 09:58 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PACman View Post
so my experience in actually trying to recycle paint for 8 years counts for nothing? And weekly trips to the "recycling center" to watch paint get taken right from our truck and put on the landfill truck means nothing? It's easy to make a video to prove a point or garner some money from do-gooders and the government. If you are recycling paint in California for example, it gets put in the 6x6x4 standard lined cardboard tote (a well known item in the waste disposal word, btw), taken to a "recycling center", put on a truck to Arkansas, and thrown in an incinerator more often than not. What i am saying is that the amount of paint that can physically be recycled is probably less than 10% of all the paint that gets collected. You don't have to believe me now, but it will eventually come to light just like all of the plastic bottle, aluminum can, cardboard recycling programs that have been discovered to be BS cash grabs. But 10% is something i guess. It would be much more effective if consumers stopped returning paint for the lamest reasons and companies like Menard's wouldn't advertise that they will take back their paint for any reason. It just encourages consumers to waste paint like never before. Menard's takes back the paint, turns in the total to the manufacturers for a credit, and takes it to their Holiday City, Ohio location where it gets "processed" onto another truck to be taken to a landfill near Toledo. Thousand's of unnecessarily wasted gallons of paint every month because they have a credibility issue with their paint department?
Come on PAC, you are coming at this from a non recycling state angle. Your local dump may take oil, paint, haz stuff from a homeowner, and I honestly don't know where that stuff goes.
But, we as in Paint Care states, do have a legitimate paint recycling program in place that is self sufficient. I can tell you with 100% certainty that the paint that leaves a paint store in those boxes do not end up in some other state or dump. That Paint Care program produces a lot of recycled paint and most government contracts and services dictate the use of some percent of recycled products. And like I said, paint that cannot be recycled gets incenerated, does not go into a landfill.
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Old 03-08-2018, 03:16 AM   #20
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Unless they are producing the recycled paint there is almost no benefit for SW, PPG to accept paint for recycling only to have it compete against their products after its been recycled.

As a consumer I love the idea of paint recycling. It’s not uncommon that I end up with an extra gallon or two after some jobs. Although I try to use it on future projects, it often ends up sitting in my garage till I decided to add hardener and take it to the dump.


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