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Old 05-25-2019, 12:34 PM   #1
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Hello everyone, my name is Endra, thank you for letting me join this forum, I've start business in wood finishing for the last 4 years, usually working with spray gun, and my fave kind of paint are Nitrocellulose and 2K Polyurethane. Wish I got a new update and knowledge sharing to solve problems and for better result in this forum.
Thank you

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Old 05-25-2019, 04:47 PM   #2
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Welcome to PT! What is Nitrocellulose?
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Old 05-25-2019, 06:44 PM   #3
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Thank you jennifertemple....
Nitocellulose is a type of lacquers, I use it to paint wood surface, generally its less hardened then 2K Polyurethane. I have use NC (Nitrocellulose) paint to add colors, then coating with 2K Polyurethane clear as final coat, in my country, theres available in 3 different type; doff, satin and glossy.

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Old 05-25-2019, 07:08 PM   #4
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Looks Like A Nice Finish!
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Old 05-27-2019, 11:46 AM   #5
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Looks Like A Nice Finish!
Yeah, and it is cheeper as well then used Acrylic Polyurethane paint. In my country budget is reallly everyones top priority, this is good to give budget solution with awesone result.

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Old 06-06-2019, 02:29 AM   #6
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Your work looks absolutely beautiful and stunning, but really be careful of your health when spraying that sort of thing. I know you're wearing a respirator, but it's still not safe to work with nitrocellulose lacquers. Very few people do in USA. Now we've mostly switched to acrylic paints for trim like that, I think none would give that kind of finish, but they are less toxic. For information, honestly this forum is pretty sparse for information on lacquers and even to some extent the polys, as we mostly just use acrylics for everything in residential painting. We do use some oil based/alkyd paints as well, but even that's getting rarer now. Due to environmental laws in USA a lot of products are getting limited, and there's a big push to try to make everything acrylic only. I think perhaps on a woodworking or furniture restoration forum you might get better info on polyurethanes and lacquers than on here, though there is some information here.

What paint brands are popular in Indonesia? When I was in Vietnam and Taiwan I saw Nippon Paint and a few local brands. Also some Dulux. Nippon Paint is barely in USA with them buying one smaller US paint company. Dulux is PPG in USA. I know you spray, but what about brushes, roller covers, etc, for walls?
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Old 06-06-2019, 10:05 AM   #7
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Your work looks absolutely beautiful and stunning, but really be careful of your health when spraying that sort of thing. I know you're wearing a respirator, but it's still not safe to work with nitrocellulose lacquers. Very few people do in USA. Now we've mostly switched to acrylic paints for trim like that, I think none would give that kind of finish, but they are less toxic. For information, honestly this forum is pretty sparse for information on lacquers and even to some extent the polys, as we mostly just use acrylics for everything in residential painting. We do use some oil based/alkyd paints as well, but even that's getting rarer now. Due to environmental laws in USA a lot of products are getting limited, and there's a big push to try to make everything acrylic only. I think perhaps on a woodworking or furniture restoration forum you might get better info on polyurethanes and lacquers than on here, though there is some information here.

What paint brands are popular in Indonesia? When I was in Vietnam and Taiwan I saw Nippon Paint and a few local brands. Also some Dulux. Nippon Paint is barely in USA with them buying one smaller US paint company. Dulux is PPG in USA. I know you spray, but what about brushes, roller covers, etc, for walls?

isocanyate-free pre and post catalyzed waterborne urethanes are as good as conversion varnish or precat and superior to nitroceullose. Even many acrylics and urethane or alkyd hybrids are superior to nitro. Less toxicity is just a bonus.


imo nitrocellulose is only still around for the dry time and price point.
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Old 06-06-2019, 01:35 PM   #8
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Welcome to the group!

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Old 07-01-2019, 02:20 PM   #9
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Your work looks absolutely beautiful and stunning, but really be careful of your health when spraying that sort of thing. I know you're wearing a respirator, but it's still not safe to work with nitrocellulose lacquers. Very few people do in USA. Now we've mostly switched to acrylic paints for trim like that, I think none would give that kind of finish, but they are less toxic. For information, honestly this forum is pretty sparse for information on lacquers and even to some extent the polys, as we mostly just use acrylics for everything in residential painting. We do use some oil based/alkyd paints as well, but even that's getting rarer now. Due to environmental laws in USA a lot of products are getting limited, and there's a big push to try to make everything acrylic only. I think perhaps on a woodworking or furniture restoration forum you might get better info on polyurethanes and lacquers than on here, though there is some information here.

What paint brands are popular in Indonesia? When I was in Vietnam and Taiwan I saw Nippon Paint and a few local brands. Also some Dulux. Nippon Paint is barely in USA with them buying one smaller US paint company. Dulux is PPG in USA. I know you spray, but what about brushes, roller covers, etc, for walls?
Dear celicaxx, first of all, thank you for your comment and suggestion, I really appreciate and that's new for me. I didn't know that NC (NitroCellulose) paint will be that bad on environment and painters health. Yes I wear respirator especially designed for spray painting. But...sure I'll gonna dig for further information for this issue, and may be considering some option to find a replacement for my works.
In the developing country like Indonesia, there's lack of warning or knowledge about environment effect on this activity. You may found a painters only wear mask made of fabrics to protect their lungs.
Brand I used for spray painting my works, mostly is Propan for transparent paint and Danagloss for solid color paint. Propan is Acrylic Polyurethane paint while Danagloss is NC paint. I once used Nippon Paint, but....I found the result and color they produce is not as good as Danagloss, that is why I stick with this brand. There are also available water base acrylic paint product from Propan, but the price is quite high and customer....again...is more focused on budget then environmental health or result. So...that's complicated though.
I do paint for walls and brand I usually use and propose is Jotun, their color is solid and good, easy to apply, hard and easy to clean.
Here's the picture for my work .

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Old 07-01-2019, 02:23 PM   #10
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isocanyate-free pre and post catalyzed waterborne urethanes are as good as conversion varnish or precat and superior to nitroceullose. Even many acrylics and urethane or alkyd hybrids are superior to nitro. Less toxicity is just a bonus.


imo nitrocellulose is only still around for the dry time and price point.
Indeed, the low price is the only reason why in Indonesia this kind of paint is still largely used.

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Old 07-01-2019, 09:18 PM   #11
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Welcome, edras!

Nitro was used a lot on guitars during the golden age of the 50's and 60's, but has largely been replaced in the industry. Nitro is also very flammable...

"Nitro finishes, however, crack and yellow with age, and they can “check” (guitar-speak for fine hairline cracks) with age or sudden exposure to low temperatures. They get thinner and more brittle as they age because the thinners in them continue to evaporate throughout an instrument’s lifetime. These characteristics actually hold special appeal for many guitarists, as the cracking, yellowing, checking and aging common to this finish type are exactly what many aficionados love about nitro.

Fender still uses nitrocellulose lacquer finishes on a select group of instruments (Road Worn™ and American Vintage series, various artist models). Variants in use include satin nitrocellulose lacquer (Highway One models, Jim Root Stratocaster), which is a flatter finish, and thin-skin nitrocellulose lacquer (Vintage Hot Rod models), which has a thinner sanding sealer or lacquer undercoat." -fender.com
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Old 07-01-2019, 10:58 PM   #12
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The other thing you need to worry about with nitrocellulose is the flammability. Nitrocellulose is the same material as smokeless gunpowder, just dissolved in solvent. So if you're spraying anywhere near an open flame it could be quite dangerous. There have been explosions in shops using nitrocellulose coatings.

https://www.jotun.com/Datasheets/Dow...t__Euk__GB.pdf

I actually looked up the Jota paint and surprisingly it looks OK. Volume of solids is pretty good, about 38%. That's about the same volume solids as a upper middle grade paint in USA.
https://www.sherwin-williams.com/doc.../035777132869/ About the same as Sherwin Williams Cashmere, for example.

In USA most of the time for trim, we do use a paint just like that, but honestly the quality of work painting in USA is probably less high than you think it would be. It's not uncommon for builders building a new house in USA to use $15 per gallon (3.78L) paint on walls, trim, and ceilings. :/ :/

With conventional acrylic, it probably won't ever be as nice as the lacquers and polys you are using, but the best way if you do decide to use it on trim is prime whatever you're going over with an alkyd or shellac primer and let the primer fully dry. Then do two coats, and make sure to give a decent dry time between each coat of paint, usually it's 4 hours, try to do at least that. If you use an acrylic over the alkyd (solvent base) or shellac primers, it won't peel or dry too soft and get gummy feeling. But if you don't use that kind of primer under an acrylic it will usually peel/won't feel hard to the touch. Something like that Sherwin Williams coating there would be considered a pretty common middle priced/quality paint on trim in USA. Part of it too in USA even at the same cost, a lot of customers if the work is not brand new construction would be intolerant of using an oil based paint or a nitrocellulose lacquer inside of their house due to the smell, so they accept a lower quality level of the final finish for that reason, just for convenience. Some people do just want the absolute best, but for most people the smell and dry times are too much.

Most walls are masonry in Indonesia, right? In USA again, it's not that common. Usually our inside walls are drywall (plasterboard, gypsum board.) When I was in Vietnam and Taiwan most walls were masonry, too, but it seemed the rich in Vietnam have started getting more plasterboard walls and ceilings, along with commercial construction too. Outside walls are usually wood here, too, but commercial/government buildings or industrial buildings might be masonry, and we also have concrete renders on the outside of buildings sometimes, too, but the frames and structural walls are still wood usually, depending on the area of USA.

Really nice wall, though! I've actually never done anything that complicated on a wall yet, haha.
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Old 07-02-2019, 08:47 AM   #13
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Welcome, edras!

Nitro was used a lot on guitars during the golden age of the 50's and 60's, but has largely been replaced in the industry. Nitro is also very flammable...

"Nitro finishes, however, crack and yellow with age, and they can “check” (guitar-speak for fine hairline cracks) with age or sudden exposure to low temperatures. They get thinner and more brittle as they age because the thinners in them continue to evaporate throughout an instrument’s lifetime. These characteristics actually hold special appeal for many guitarists, as the cracking, yellowing, checking and aging common to this finish type are exactly what many aficionados love about nitro.

Fender still uses nitrocellulose lacquer finishes on a select group of instruments (Road Worn and American Vintage series, various artist models). Variants in use include satin nitrocellulose lacquer (Highway One models, Jim Root Stratocaster), which is a flatter finish, and thin-skin nitrocellulose lacquer (Vintage Hot Rod models), which has a thinner sanding sealer or lacquer undercoat." -fender.com
Hi Holland,
Thank you for joining in to the discussion. Greatly appreciate for information you share of guitar finish. I play a guitar too, but...only to fill my leisure time, just for fun, and it is an acoustic Yamaha, I think it is finish on clear coat of Nitro paint, well...only my guess based on feeling of touch its surface.
I have never finish a guitar yet so far, only an vintage local music instrument, that looks like Sitar. It was in very bad condition, several part was already damage caused by aging and termite.
I uses to sanding all the old paint as clean as possible, then appy some wood filler to repair some damage or dented part, apply a wood stain then spray with Polyurethane sanding sealer. Sanding again and final coat is Acrylic Polyurethane satin gloss. When deliver to my customer he said, he wanted to be a little more glossy, so I decide to do some buffing work with rotary polisher and use compound from Meguiars (usually use it to compound my car ). Then when I deliver to the customer again, he accept it with satisfied and happy of my work result, please check the picture bellow.

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Old 07-02-2019, 01:25 PM   #14
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The other thing you need to worry about with nitrocellulose is the flammability. Nitrocellulose is the same material as smokeless gunpowder, just dissolved in solvent. So if you're spraying anywhere near an open flame it could be quite dangerous. There have been explosions in shops using nitrocellulose coatings.
I guess its time to moving on, really...I have made some short calculation, the different isn't that great to use polys paint actually

Jota paint is one of my favorite brand, but for their polyurethane paint price is higher then the local brand I used for the same type of the paint.

For primer I usually used epoxy primer or polyurethane surfacer. Polys surfacer is better for my opinion, but about 30% more expensive then epoxy.

For trim or plinth ussualy I produce by my self in my shops. I have several router bits i bought online from China (Aliexpress) its inexpensive and just working great. Raw mterial sometime used solid wood for transparent type trim or plinth and mdf for solid color since it is much more cheaper then solid wood, easy to form though.

Yes, most of wall here is masonry, even the partition and especially rooms. Drywall only used on office building partition or apartement. Wall made of wood is rarely found in the city, but several village still used wood as wall, but...its rare, new building usually masonry type wall.
In the house, drywall only used for ceiling, people here still have mindset that drywall is not strong enough as a material to build as partition or rooms. In my shops I use drywall for partition from production room, painting room, and bed room as well. For structure I used gavalum truss and insert a glasswool between to reduce the sound from each room. I know glasswool is not a best material, but it is in my budget reach.

Thank your for your comment on my wall paint job, actually it is not that difficult to create such pattern, all you need is masking tape. Paint the wall with white first, wait till fully dried. Applied some tapes and make a pattern you like, then roll the grey or any colour you want, wait till half dry and remove the tape. Half dry paint wont peel off, so you will have a stright line cut right on the edge of the masking tape . I have some simple pattern work with masking tape bellow.

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Old 07-02-2019, 07:09 PM   #15
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I think you are more advanced than 99.99% of us on here. T_T

But it's all awesome work, wow.

I've actually never used acrylic polyurethanes. They're not that highly regarded in USA, though again with environmental stuff we're starting to use it more. I've used tinted solvent based ones, and non-tinted ones. I've also used a little shellac as well, but honestly my work is pretty amateur compared to you. Is shellac popular in Indonesia or no? I enjoy shellac as the dry times are fast and it's easy and not smelly to work with, but the water resistance isn't good. In USA as well a lot of people seem to regard shellac sanding sealer as the best, then top coat with poly.

That's awesome that you can make your own trim as well. I've considered trying to find some forms to make plaster crown moldings, those are in some older houses here. In Vietnam I saw some masonry ones like that as well. We had lath and plaster in most houses until the 1950s in US, then drywall got most popular. We have a system called veneer plaster, too, that's not that common, where you do a full trowel only (no sanding) plaster coat on drywall boards, but again, not that common.

Don't sweat the insulation choice. In US most interior walls aren't even insulated, just the exterior walls. It's pretty common in USA for insulation as well.
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Old 07-03-2019, 01:31 PM   #16
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Thank you for your complement celicaxx, but really I am not that good. I am new in this indutry and only have a small workshop when I decide to quit my job as a marketing officer and start my own business back in 2014. The reason I join here is to enrich my knowledge, enhance my work result and learn from others on similar field like you.

Shellac is not popular here, I have read some article about this kind of paint, I think it has more enviromental friendly, and I am gonna dig further about this and try to use it, hope there is available on the market here.

Little off topics, the only reason I start a woodworking is because I hate when carpenters do their job way off precission, whether on jointing or wood surface works. It is killing the painters who try to cover or repair their misserable works. Customer never accept that it is because the raw furniture is already bad, painters do the finish and all fault is in our responsibility. That is why I decide to learn on wodworking and start purchasing the equipment about a year ago. Where do I learn? Youtube has a bunch of tutorial from beginner to midle level of woodworking skill. My fave channel is Steve Ramsey from woodworking for mere mortal. His tutorial is clear, simple and easy to follow with reasonable equipment and result. We dont have to catch the precission level to 0.00mm right? We just built a table, not a space craft .

Here just a sample of my woodworking result after applied a polyurethane surfacer on it.

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Old 07-04-2019, 01:47 AM   #17
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I think overall in USA, I don't think you know any Chinese, but the quality of most work over the past 50 years is pretty... 差不多, chabuduo, or basically halfass/lazy. On new construction I've had baseboard trim be off from the wall about 8-9mm that I'd have to caulk, or jointed pieces 3-4mm apart I'd have to blend in, etc, etc. Then of course the whole saying of "Oh well, you touched it you own it" blah blah. Good or bad, some people care, some people don't.

I have a question about MDF. I never really worked with it beyond just mitering some trim pieces, but if you make stuff out of MDF, how do you seal it to look... like wood? As in, not be strands of fibers? Is there a specific primer for that? Some people like MDF here as it can actually bend along walls that were framed out of square on baseboards/etc.

Personally I'm actually trying to learn much more in the opposite direction, toward tile, stone, masonry, and plastering. I find it more fun than carpentry, but I wish to actually learn more carpentry to make speakers for myself.

Shellac is definitely OK, but the water resistance is poor. It does make a good primer and sands well. It also will "melt" if you get ammonia or alcohol on it, though for painting indoors in an occupied house I like it as the smell is very minimal compared to solvent based primers (it uses alcohol as a solvent) and clean up is a lot better, as you can wash your brushes out with ammonia, which is only about $2 a gallon, compared to paint thinner, which is $10 or so. (Can't easily pull out gasoline to clean brushes at a client's house...) Also if you are brushing, it's again more convenient as you don't need to keep solvent brushes vs acrylic brushes. We're probably less big on spraying than you'd expect here in US, it still happens on new construction or if a whole house is remodeled totally, but in an occupied house it's very difficult working around furniture and the like, so most trim work is brushed on.
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Old 07-04-2019, 09:15 AM   #18
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Agree....adjustment because of unprecise wall or trim can be frustated, ehausted and time waste.

Well, everyone have their own interest..right.

Before I found some trick about MDF finishing, believe me, I hate it so much..., but when I found out how to finish and make it feel solid and hard, I start use it as trim, door garnish and plinth. The problem for this kind of material is their super absorber, especially when you cut through their outline layer. Apply some filler only will float on top of their soft super absorber surface, when sanding this filler, usually the fillers gone but the surface still feel soft. Apply sanding sealer with spray does the same. So I try to apply polyurethane sanding sealer, but I change the mixing ratio, when use spray, mixing ratio should be 4 : 1 : 3 (base:hardener:thinner), when apply to seal MDF, I use ratio 4 : 1 : 1, and apply it with brush. Brush help this sanding sealer goes through the MDF fiber. When fully dry, sand the surface with 240 grits sand paper. And you will fiund it feel smooth and solid. For me, I usually apply poly surfacer or epoxy primer on it before final color and top coat with clear polys.
Here is the pictures, of mdf before (left) and mdf after (right) applied with polyurethane sanding sealer, I also include the attachment of product I used, but...I cant found the sheets with English, but the specification is in English for your reference.
spesification-propan-pu-91_2017-12-27_11-04-34-17-catalog-wood-finish_pu-91pdf (1).pdf

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