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Old 05-30-2012, 11:55 AM   #1
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Default Self-concealing finish nails.

Hi everyone,
I have been developing a self-concealing finish nail for carpentry that eliminates the need to fill nail holes and I would like to get all of your thoughts and feedback about the concept of the product and where you see it most applicable. We have a patented nail design that encapsulates the head of the nail in a polymer so when the nail is driven flush into the wood all that is needed is a light sand and then it is ready to be painted. For more info and background on the product go to http://www.khameleonnails.com/ or go to http://www.facebook.com/KhameleonNails on Facebook. Look forward to hearing from you all, all feedback is welcome.
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Old 05-30-2012, 02:41 PM   #2
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You can introduce yourself in the nroduction section. Tell us a little bit about yourself.
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Old 05-30-2012, 04:37 PM   #3
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Default self-concealing finish nail

Jeeez, thought I was in the introduction section. About me, I've been a painter for over 15yrs and have got sick and tired of filling nail holes, so myself and a few others have a invented and patented a nail eliminates nail holes. I got on this site because i found it chaulk full of threads on various methods of applications to deal with nail holes, and I thought it would be a good venue to get feedback. We are in the second phase of prototypes. The nails design works works increadibly well on base boards and jams, and also with composit trims such as AZEK. We are hand driving them now but are in the process of developing a pneumatic line. The nail has another design phase to go through, but we have proven the concept that a nail can be head can be encapsulated with a polymer and driven into wood, as well as the effectiveness of it's self concealing design. That is, when it is driven flush to the surface, the wood is no crushed around the nail head but actually constricts and seals it in. When sanded and painted there is some slight flashing, but for the first phase of development it is a true marvel if I must say myself. It's about making a superior nail compared to anything out there on the market today.
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Old 05-30-2012, 09:01 PM   #4
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I don't think there's a solution for this.

Most new carpenters need more common sense if they think it's acceptable to leave an entire job like this regardless of what type of nail they use.

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Self-concealing finish nails.-phpeyohd4pm.jpg  

Self-concealing finish nails.-phpbj7gaipm.jpg  

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Old 05-30-2012, 09:29 PM   #5
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Hey if it works I'm all for it. Between carpenters that shoot elebenty-bwillion nails where three woulkd do, and carpenters who shmear caulking over the nail holes thinking they're doing the painters a favor...
Bring it.
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Old 05-30-2012, 10:16 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth16 View Post
Hey if it works I'm all for it. Between carpenters that shoot elebenty-bwillion nails where three woulkd do, and carpenters who shmear caulking over the nail holes thinking they're doing the painters a favor...
Bring it.
Going through that nitemare at the moment.Looks like a scatter gun was used on all the trim.Time he's done it will take a good portion of a quart of spack and endless tubes of caulk
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Old 05-30-2012, 10:53 PM   #7
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There isn't much on your site in way of information.

A video would go a long way.

Do you have any in production?

I'd buy a box.
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Old 05-30-2012, 11:53 PM   #8
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Just got done with some trim a carpenter did. Zero gaps, minimal nail holes. Was great.

It pays to work with good people.
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Old 05-31-2012, 12:56 AM   #9
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Congrats, i hope it works out for you. Me and the super on the new construction work I do have talked of that idea for a couple years. I'm glad someone is moving on it.
Last NC house I did, i finally got to complain. Counted 117 unset nails and 73 of them were in the master closet.( I felt this was my time to shine) I took the GC and showed him. (no big deal)
He got a low rate worker to set them. funny thing is the guy pounded them in so hard that they came out the other side of one of the shelves in the master. We had a good laugh.
good luck with your project!
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Old 05-31-2012, 10:49 PM   #10
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Aztec, that is absolutely horrendous. Yikes, you are dealing with a whole lot more than filling nail holes. It does pay to work with good people no doubt, but either way, inside or out , there are lots and lots of holes to be filled in this profession, and hopefully we have a solution that can begin to address a solid majority of the market. It may not be perfect for every application, but for basic baseboard, jams and flat trim I believe we can address. I talked to some builders around the corner from my house who where using AZEK, screwing it on and not filling the holes. They where very skeptical.. until I grabbed some scraps, went home and made a sample and brought it back to show them. Got to say they where very impressed.. Gotta have ring shank though.. Check it out, and I am working on a video, it's just a matter of time and resources. Thanks for all your input.
Bummer, are there any tricks to uploading files? No can do as of the moment.
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Old 06-01-2012, 08:19 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AztecPainting View Post
I don't think there's a solution for this.

Most new carpenters need more common sense if they think it's acceptable to leave an entire job like this regardless of what type of nail they use.

Wait a second! Have you been on my job? I'm dealing with the same thing. I bet I set 75% of the nails in the crown molding of a 20x12 room today.
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Old 06-02-2012, 11:04 PM   #12
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Default AZEK sample comparison

This job is going on around the corner from me. They are using AZEK on the trim which is screwed and plugged which is time consuming and aesthetically is marginal, and looks suspect as far as function and longevity of the plug. The clapboards are primed cedar that where pneumatically fastened. The wood is crushed and the nail heads are already rusting. The sample I am holding up is AZEK as well that I hand drove and sanded lightly with an orbital. The upper left nail on the sample is a stainless ring shank, the other three nails a various prototypes we made. The black nail headed being the latest and best. Sands perfectly flush, no damage to the wood, tight and sealed, aesthetically it looks awesome. Self-concealing finish nails.-azek-comp..jpg

Self-concealing finish nails.-azek-comp-3.jpg

Self-concealing finish nails.-sample-w-clip.jpg
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Old 06-03-2012, 12:18 AM   #13
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Aside from perfecting your design, the only issue I can see is actually getting carpenters to use them, after all they aren't the ones that have to fill and sand - so they actually don't care.

Push them towards GC's if it takes off, at least they can advise the chippies that this is the product they would like used.
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Old 06-03-2012, 01:54 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth16 View Post
Hey if it works I'm all for it. Between carpenters that shoot elebenty-bwillion nails where three woulkd do, and carpenters who shmear caulking over the nail holes thinking they're doing the painters a favor...
Bring it.
Carpenter should be shot with nail gun in buttox!
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Old 06-03-2012, 05:16 AM   #15
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I built my own home & shop & I wish those had been around when I was trimming things out. Looks like a great idea to me.
I don't have much trimming to do any more but I make "vintage" signs which usually include a trim. Sometimes I want the nails to show ( usually old square nails) but other times I don't. Attached is a pic of what I'm talking about.
I hate filling nail holes.
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Old 06-03-2012, 08:33 AM   #16
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That is a nice looking piece T.R! Hopefully they will be available in about year and a half. As far as addressing the issue of getting the carpenters to use them, it has to be pushed and come from the top down in the industry marketing wise, and more than anything, it has to be a far superior product which it will be if we can pull it off. If it works as proposed, they will want it for its functionality and higher quality, but it will also be the most advanced nail/nailer on the market, and I'm going with the " everyone wants the latest and greatest" marketing plan their. We all like a new tool that function's better than it's predecessor's. Is it for everyone? Aztec's clearly show some carpenter's could care less, but I believe the majority do especially since a lot of GC's have put the tool belt back on in this economy. Thanks for input!
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Old 06-03-2012, 08:38 AM   #17
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Would the nails have enough holding power for exteriors where headless nails are not recommended?

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Old 06-03-2012, 09:55 AM   #18
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Great question. Two things, are nail's design is not headless, the head is encapsulated and goes subsurface, and the tapered design of the head actually locks it in the substrate because the flange below. The flange is slightly bigger in diameter than the actual head size, thus preventing it from backing out. Second, they would have to have some type of ring shank or spiral design incorporated into them for composite trim because there is so much movement. There are also coating's that act as a lubricant that aid the drive of the nail and through the reaction of friction glue it in. So my answer is yes, they would have to be, to be accepted in the industry.
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Old 06-03-2012, 11:44 AM   #19
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I like the cut of your gib mate... I look forward to the day machine gun carpenters will use them.
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Old 06-14-2012, 10:45 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotwing7 View Post
Aside from perfecting your design, the only issue I can see is actually getting carpenters to use them, after all they aren't the ones that have to fill and sand - so they actually don't care.

Push them towards GC's if it takes off, at least they can advise the chippies that this is the product they would like used.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaintingContractorNJ View Post
Carpenter should be shot with nail gun in buttox!

Hey I have run miles of trim. Always cope inside joints, and glue outside, I always insisted on doing my own filling and caulking which always pisses off the painters until they see the finished product, they get payed the same and don't have to do any prep. I never could walk away from a job leaving it un-finished.
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