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Old 01-22-2016, 03:50 PM   #1
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Hello all.

I'm new to the community, yes. I have provided an introduction where appropriate, and am turning to you for help in decision making.

An ex-coworker of mine, whom left our employer to go full-time in his already running business.. has a spec-home project that he's started on. He offered me the opportunity to bid the painting, interior and exterior. Plans were provided, but no detailed specs of paint materials to be used. Doors were not a part of my bid, and cabinetry was to be stained by another contractor. Exterior wood columns were also going to be stained by other contractors.

My bid was for interior walls, ceilings, and trim. Exterior fascia, soffit, and hardie-siding.

He made a change to the cabinets and now being painted. I dont know how to read the cabinets on plans, so he said its only a small bit, ill give you $700 more. I agreed. We went with ProClassic, because i really dont want to come back to touch up a crappy latex paint. (He wanted latex, no oil). That ran me a pretty penny. There's a ton of cabinetry, which I am now eating the cost of.

Now, he's got really cheap doors and I told him I will give him my price for them.. he says, "no, that's part of trim. I'm not paying you anymore because that is trim work". I told him, "doors are doors, trim is trim."

Nowww.... he changed some work outside. The beams are no longer stained by his other contractor, and says I need to paint them and trim around the garage door. I told him, "okay, but that is separate from my bid". Again, he says "no, I gave you a complete project, interior and exterior, you had the plans. It needs to get done, or I don't pay you."


He's got about 30% ($2,550) of funds left.. I am thinking of just packing up and leaving him the work. I think I will be better off eating the 30% than buying the rest of materials, finishing the cabs, and still finishing the exterior changes he made. Plus, he still wants me to "touch-up" all the dings his masons are doing to the fascia/soffit/siding, as as part of my punch-list..

End of rant.
What do you think?
We had no formal contract... I know him, he knows me.. I thought we'd be okay. Boy, was I wrong..
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Old 01-22-2016, 04:05 PM   #2
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Not to be harsh but your price was too low in general in my opinion that is where everything starts from. As for what to do now if what you are saying is true I do not see an ethical problem of leaving. I have never walked off a job but you may have too here. The old saying I never lost money on a job I didn't do might be true here. You may need to be more selective on who you work for.
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Old 01-22-2016, 04:17 PM   #3
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I have not had to walk off a job either. But I am looking at having a bigger loss if I finish, than if I actually finished out the job.
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Old 01-22-2016, 04:32 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenericRemodel View Post
Hello all.

I'm new to the community, yes. I have provided an introduction where appropriate, and am turning to you for help in decision making.

An ex-coworker of mine, whom left our employer to go full-time in his already running business.. has a spec-home project that he's started on. He offered me the opportunity to bid the painting, interior and exterior. Plans were provided, but no detailed specs of paint materials to be used. Doors were not a part of my bid, and cabinetry was to be stained by another contractor. Exterior wood columns were also going to be stained by other contractors.

My bid was for interior walls, ceilings, and trim. Exterior fascia, soffit, and hardie-siding.

He made a change to the cabinets and now being painted. I dont know how to read the cabinets on plans, so he said its only a small bit, ill give you $700 more. I agreed. We went with ProClassic, because i really dont want to come back to touch up a crappy latex paint. (He wanted latex, no oil). That ran me a pretty penny. There's a ton of cabinetry, which I am now eating the cost of.

Now, he's got really cheap doors and I told him I will give him my price for them.. he says, "no, that's part of trim. I'm not paying you anymore because that is trim work". I told him, "doors are doors, trim is trim."

Nowww.... he changed some work outside. The beams are no longer stained by his other contractor, and says I need to paint them and trim around the garage door. I told him, "okay, but that is separate from my bid". Again, he says "no, I gave you a complete project, interior and exterior, you had the plans. It needs to get done, or I don't pay you."


He's got about 30% ($2,550) of funds left.. I am thinking of just packing up and leaving him the work. I think I will be better off eating the 30% than buying the rest of materials, finishing the cabs, and still finishing the exterior changes he made. Plus, he still wants me to "touch-up" all the dings his masons are doing to the fascia/soffit/siding, as as part of my punch-list..

End of rant.
What do you think?
We had no formal contract... I know him, he knows me.. I thought we'd be okay. Boy, was I wrong..
Your second to last sentence pretty much sums it up.

Don't know if you've actually had a chance to sit down with him and discuss how things have changed from what you expected, or if it would even do any good, but that is what I would aim for at this point. Even putting it down on paper for him to see might help. Trouble is, he is likely running low on funds at this point and is hoping to salvage a bit by making it your problem. And, of course, by not having a contract it becomes a "you said/I said" scenario. Again, trying to work through this by discussion would be my preferred method, but having to walk just may end up being your best bet. Just try and get paid for everything you've done and purchased so far before you do.
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Old 01-22-2016, 04:42 PM   #5
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That's a tough situation for sure, and I think most have been there at one time or another. It's a good example of how having a detailed bid & contract can save a lot of potential headaches. List the surfaces to be painted, the particular product & sheen to be used on those surfaces, a list of exclusions specifying surfaces not included, a payment schedule, and a statement of intent to back-charge for additional damages caused from other trades, (including the hourly rate you'll charge). Also, written change orders signed & dated by both parties before additional work is done.

Hope it all works out for you though. Good luck!
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Old 01-22-2016, 05:30 PM   #6
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I have spoken with him in-person when I picked up our last draw. He wasn't having any of it. Said, had I been some other painter, he would say tough luck. Which is still pretty much the intent.

I talked to him again today, and which is when I found out a out the rest of the changes he's sneaking in..

I'll just be picking up my ladders in the AM!
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Old 01-22-2016, 05:32 PM   #7
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Stelzer is right on the money, unfortunately that lesson is usually learned the hard way.

I'd follow the advise RH gave for your current situation and whether it works or not remember this situation and make sure you don't go down the same path again.

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Old 01-22-2016, 07:06 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenericRemodel View Post
Hello all.

I'm new to the community, yes. I have provided an introduction where appropriate, and am turning to you for help in decision making.

An ex-coworker of mine, whom left our employer to go full-time in his already running business.. has a spec-home project that he's started on. He offered me the opportunity to bid the painting, interior and exterior. Plans were provided, but no detailed specs of paint materials to be used. Doors were not a part of my bid, and cabinetry was to be stained by another contractor. Exterior wood columns were also going to be stained by other contractors.

My bid was for interior walls, ceilings, and trim. Exterior fascia, soffit, and hardie-siding.

He made a change to the cabinets and now being painted. I dont know how to read the cabinets on plans, so he said its only a small bit, ill give you $700 more. I agreed. We went with ProClassic, because i really dont want to come back to touch up a crappy latex paint. (He wanted latex, no oil). That ran me a pretty penny. There's a ton of cabinetry, which I am now eating the cost of.

Now, he's got really cheap doors and I told him I will give him my price for them.. he says, "no, that's part of trim. I'm not paying you anymore because that is trim work". I told him, "doors are doors, trim is trim."

Nowww.... he changed some work outside. The beams are no longer stained by his other contractor, and says I need to paint them and trim around the garage door. I told him, "okay, but that is separate from my bid". Again, he says "no, I gave you a complete project, interior and exterior, you had the plans. It needs to get done, or I don't pay you."


He's got about 30% ($2,550) of funds left.. I am thinking of just packing up and leaving him the work. I think I will be better off eating the 30% than buying the rest of materials, finishing the cabs, and still finishing the exterior changes he made. Plus, he still wants me to "touch-up" all the dings his masons are doing to the fascia/soffit/siding, as as part of my punch-list..

End of rant.
What do you think?
We had no formal contract... I know him, he knows me.. I thought we'd be okay. Boy, was I wrong..
He sounds like every other spec-home builder I've ever known.
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Old 01-22-2016, 07:32 PM   #9
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#1 rule in being a paint contractor

Never wet your brush without a contract


.
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Old 01-22-2016, 07:59 PM   #10
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Doors, cabs, and all the other stuff, can't be done for the same price before. Your fault for not specifying any of those things before or as they occurred, his fault for not taking those things into account with what's left of his budget. He wanted you to eat it plain and simple.

I think everyone here would have picked up their stuff in the morning, just like you did.
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Old 01-23-2016, 08:49 AM   #11
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No contract, so either one of you can say whatever you want.

He holds the money & you hold the brush.

If your not making money for the xtra things then in this situation walk.

Make a contract for every job. Add things to it when situations arise. My contract has gone from 1 page to 5 over time.
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Old 01-23-2016, 09:23 AM   #12
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Currently, I only use Quickbooks Online for my quotes. I put my Scope, inclusions, exclusions, and payment schedule on it. However, I can only put so much in the box. Normally, I do fill it out.. sometimes it has to be vague if it's a big job, just so I can fit it in the box. I'll need to try and start typing up a contract. I'll do some googling for samples.
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Old 01-23-2016, 09:32 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenericRemodel View Post
I'll do some googling for samples.
You're gonna find gold in this thread.

https://www.painttalk.com/f4/file-swap-thread-380/

Did you grab your gear this morning? I would have for sure. The guy's running out of budget and trying to bully you into fixing his flawed planning. Not your problem.
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Old 01-23-2016, 10:15 AM   #14
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Did you grab your gear this morning? I would have for sure. The guy's running out of budget and trying to bully you into fixing his flawed planning. Not your problem.
I'm headed that way as we speak. I have another job I need to check up on shortly after.
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Old 01-23-2016, 11:27 AM   #15
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We just finished up a remodel project similar to what your going through. At every turn the guy wanted to change the SOW. The key for me when this happens is to be firm from the very first add on. If they sweet talk you into the first add on for bad profit margins, I guarantee there will be more coming.

Be FIRM from the first add on with these types of people. Even with him holding the remaining 30%, you have as much negotiating power as him. Good luck to the guy finding a decent painter that's just waiting by the phone for his emergency call.

I've generally found that these types are in a position of power in their day jobs. They rarely, if ever, hear the words "no thanks". When they say jump, the folks beneath them say "how high?"

They may get pissy when you decline their offer for add ons, but most of the time they come around and pay what YOU quote them.

I hope it all works out for you 👍
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Old 01-23-2016, 12:31 PM   #16
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Well, I've already picked up my equipment from the home. I'll continue with our other job until he calls. Then I'll tell him he can pay me for the add-ons, or he can keep the 30% and find someone else that is willing to take his offer. Otherwise, I didn't finish the regular scope. If I continue, he'll still hold the 30% until every bit of his request is complete. I'll have lost more money by that time.
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Old 01-24-2016, 11:22 AM   #17
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Well, I've already picked up my equipment from the home. I'll continue with our other job until he calls. Then I'll tell him he can pay me for the add-ons, or he can keep the 30% and find someone else that is willing to take his offer. Otherwise, I didn't finish the regular scope. If I continue, he'll still hold the 30% until every bit of his request is complete. I'll have lost more money by that time.
Sorry to hear, but sometimes it's better to run than it is to take a big loss. 2k+ is considered a big loss. Yes, there are people who have been burned for more, but I think anything over $500 is big and should be avoidable at all cost.

Honestly I would have the guy pay for the add-on stuff that you did do, before you go back to work for him (if you do). Otherwise be ready to finish the job and not get paid because guys that hold payment back will nitpick and make excuses as to why their broke and can't afford to pay you.

Rule #1: Grab your money first. Before you do any more work.

Sounds like you've learned a valuable lesson off this one. Contracts and the more detailed the better. That way people can't tack on things to the to-do-list by calling doors trim, etc. etc.

Just so you know my contracts average about 7 to 10 pages.

I also include photos of work to be worked on in the contracts, so a home owner can't claim for us to do a whole hallway if we're only doing a section or what not. Directions (North, South, East, and West) also help when determining what you are going to paint and not paint, etc.

Good luck to you in the future and with this guy.
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Old 01-24-2016, 03:32 PM   #18
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Quote:
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No contract, so either one of you can say whatever you want.

He holds the money & you hold the brush.

If your not making money for the xtra things then in this situation walk.

Make a contract for every job. Add things to it when situations arise. My contract has gone from 1 page to 5 over time.

So true. When doing interior trim jobs I try and be as specific as possible (even to the point of it appearing to be overly redundant) about exactly what will and what won't be done. The trick is making everything clear while also keeping it readable and understandable. A few days after getting my customers their contract, I always call to ask if they have any questions about it.

For example, I don't just list, "paint door casing". Instead, I specify exactly what type product will be used, the amount of prep, plus which sides AND up to what point will I be doing it. Often we will only be doing the hallway side of the casing, not the side facing into a bedroom or bath, so being very clear about exactly what is and isn't being done can save a lot of misunderstanding or headaches down the line. Not to mention that it may be the difference between a job priced to make me money versus one where I take it in the shorts simply because I wasn't precise with the language in my contract. IMO, you can't be too clear or communicate too much at this point in the project.
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Old 01-24-2016, 04:04 PM   #19
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[quote=RH;1103554]
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt19422 View Post
No contract, so either one of you can say whatever you want.

He holds the money & you hold the brush.

If your not making money for the xtra things then in this situation walk.

Make a contract for every job. Add things to it when situations arise. My contract has gone from 1 page to 5 over time.[/QUOTE]


So true. When doing interior trim jobs I try and be as specific as possible (even to the point of it appearing to be overly redundant) about exactly what will and what won't be done. The trick is making everything clear while also keeping it readable and understandable. After a few days after getting my customers their contract, I always call to ask if they have any questions about it.

For example, I don't just list, "paint door casing". Instead, I specify exactly what type product will be used, the amount of prep, plus which sides AND up to what point will I be doing it. Often we will only be doing the hallway side of the casing, not the side facing into a bedroom or bath, so being very clear about exactly what is and isn't being done can save a lot of misunderstanding or headaches down the line. Not to mention that it may be the difference between a job priced to make me money versus one where I take it in the shorts simply because I wasn't precise with the language in my contract. IMO, you can't be too clear or communicate too much at this point in the project.
RH, your estimates sound very thorough. I doubt mine are as detailed as yours, but they are pretty good. I find being detailed is also helpful for the customer to make sure they are comparing apples-to-apples with different estimates. I always tell them to contact me if they want to know how my scope compares to other estimates.
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Old 01-24-2016, 04:46 PM   #20
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i use estimate works by DevWave for estimates

i believe in details, product used, number of coats, sf of area, prep & most importing WHAT is excluded

the cheap HO doesn't give a crap .... but the customer i want appreciates it & they pay
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