Contract Signed, DP Recieved, Now they want to change the color.....? - Paint Talk - Professional Painting Contractors Forum
CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY, IT'S FREE!
Go Back   Paint Talk - Professional Painting Contractors Forum > Business > Business, Marketing, and Sales

Like Tree33Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-10-2017, 12:14 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 218
Rewards Points: 436
Thanks: 22
Thanked 15 Times in 12 Posts
View Worker Bee's Photo Album My Photos
Default Contract Signed, DP Recieved, Now they want to change the color.....?

So I bid on this rather small exterior, figure itll take use about a week to complete. While going over the contract, they inform me they want to change the body from light green to battleship grey, and ask if this will affect the contract.

I informed them that it will. As it will most likely require two coats vs one coat.

Also they want to change the dark green trim, to a creamy yellow which I know will not cover in one coat. Not with Duration anyways.

So, I nform them of the fac that a major color change like this will definitely change the scope and price of my contract. The response was that 'He doesnt wish to spend much more than what my contract has listed... I said Aura might cover in one coat, but chances are it will need 2 coats to cover properly.

His response was 'we would cross that bridge when we get to it'

So, today I wrote up a change order for the difference of the materials, as well as a another change order for the application of a 2nd coat on top of the original contract. I will be submitting both to the home owner in the morning.

Thoughts?

If they want to stick with the original contract, which clearly stipulates the colors and scheme remain the same, thats fine..But I am not going to have a whole house painted, and needing a second coat of paint and the homeowner saying thats on me...I am not crossing that bridge if and when we get there, unless this is handled now prior to starting the job.

If its a deal breaker, then I will give him back his check, and go on my way.

Last edited by Worker Bee; 08-10-2017 at 12:16 AM..
Worker Bee is offline   Reply With Quote

Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. PaintTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-10-2017, 05:02 AM   #2
very senior member
 
chrisn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Hagerstown md
Posts: 9,848
Rewards Points: 4
Thanks: 3,623
Thanked 5,523 Times in 3,391 Posts
View chrisn's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Give him his $ and walk
slinger58 likes this.
__________________
It's PASTE, not glue
chrisn is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to chrisn For This Useful Post:
RH (08-10-2017)
Old 08-10-2017, 05:55 AM   #3
RH
Moderator
 
RH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 19,278
Rewards Points: 6,966
Thanks: 11,871
Thanked 15,544 Times in 8,193 Posts
View RH's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Worker Bee View Post
So I bid on this rather small exterior, figure itll take use about a week to complete. While going over the contract, they inform me they want to change the body from light green to battleship grey, and ask if this will affect the contract.

I informed them that it will. As it will most likely require two coats vs one coat.

Also they want to change the dark green trim, to a creamy yellow which I know will not cover in one coat. Not with Duration anyways.

So, I nform them of the fac that a major color change like this will definitely change the scope and price of my contract. The response was that 'He doesnt wish to spend much more than what my contract has listed... I said Aura might cover in one coat, but chances are it will need 2 coats to cover properly.

His response was 'we would cross that bridge when we get to it'

So, today I wrote up a change order for the difference of the materials, as well as a another change order for the application of a 2nd coat on top of the original contract. I will be submitting both to the home owner in the morning.

Thoughts?

If they want to stick with the original contract, which clearly stipulates the colors and scheme remain the same, thats fine..But I am not going to have a whole house painted, and needing a second coat of paint and the homeowner saying thats on me...I am not crossing that bridge if and when we get there, unless this is handled now prior to starting the job.

If its a deal breaker, then I will give him back his check, and go on my way.
Well, if he signs the change orders then go ahead and proceed. If he doesn't, yeah return his money and move on.
PACman likes this.
__________________
“Getting an inch of snow is like winning ten cents in the lottery.”

Bill Watterson
RH is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-10-2017, 08:25 AM   #4
Senior Member
 
CApainter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA
Posts: 14,801
Rewards Points: 2,742
Thanks: 11,226
Thanked 9,653 Times in 5,492 Posts
View CApainter's Photo Album My Photos
Default

As a consumer looking at the painting product, color preference seems to be extremely important. I would imagine a painting contractor has to consider homeowner indecision as part of the job.

I would certainly not perform any extra work without compensation. I think it's reasonable to suggest the color change will likely require more work, and therefore, more cost. As far as getting to that bridge, that's not a very good business practice unless the job had a time and material contingency for the potentially increased work.

How you go about that agreement will probably have a lot to do with professional persuasion.
PACman likes this.
CApainter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2017, 11:01 AM   #5
RH
Moderator
 
RH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 19,278
Rewards Points: 6,966
Thanks: 11,871
Thanked 15,544 Times in 8,193 Posts
View RH's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CApainter View Post
As a consumer looking at the painting product, color preference seems to be extremely important. I would imagine a painting contractor has to consider homeowner indecision as part of the job.

I would certainly not perform any extra work without compensation. I think it's reasonable to suggest the color change will likely require more work, and therefore, more cost. As far as getting to that bridge, that's not a very good business practice unless the job had a time and material contingency for the potentially increased work.

How you go about that agreement will probably have a lot to do with professional persuasion.
Sure, customer indecision about colors is probably the biggest potential for change orders we encounter. And waiting to see if additional work is needed before addressing it would be a terrible business practice. Doing so is just setting yourself up for a conflict.

Not sure how much "persuasion" would be involved. A clear contract with all contingencies laid out is something both parties agree to. If either doesn't want to sign then the deal is off. In the case of the OP, the customer appears to have altered the terms of their original contract and WB has drawn up a new one in the form of change orders. Now the customer either accepts or not. Seems pretty cut and dried to me.
CApainter, chrisn, PRC and 2 others like this.
__________________
“Getting an inch of snow is like winning ten cents in the lottery.”

Bill Watterson
RH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2017, 12:27 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
CApainter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA
Posts: 14,801
Rewards Points: 2,742
Thanks: 11,226
Thanked 9,653 Times in 5,492 Posts
View CApainter's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RH View Post
Sure, customer indecision about colors is probably the biggest potential for change orders we encounter. And waiting to see if additional work is needed before addressing it would be a terrible business practice. Doing so is just setting yourself up for a conflict.

Not sure how much "persuasion" would be involved. A clear contract with all contingencies laid out is something both parties agree to. If either doesn't want to sign then the deal is off. In the case of the OP, the customer appears to have altered the terms of their original contract and WB has drawn up a new one in the form of change orders. Now the customer either accepts or not. Seems pretty cut and dried to me.
I didn't mean to suggest WB was exercising bad business practices. It was more of an indictment of the homeowner to suggest they "get to that bridge" before making a decision on extra costs. That's a bad business practice, albeit on the consumer's end.

But my comment about persuasion had to do more with securing a job that doesn't necessarily require the nuclear option. In other words, with or without the color changes, the preparation will remain the same. At worst, what the OP is talking about is an extra coat of paint and possibly straighter lines. I'm not certain if these changes require different products that may be unfamiliar or known to be more difficult to apply..

It would be unfortunate to walk from a job that seems to be relatively close to the original scope of work. And I'm sure most of the contractors here have experienced homeowners that will moan when presented with additional costs. But, like most service customers, they just want the job done at the end of the day. A little push or persuasion away from the minor grief associated with a change order could benefit that process rather than a cold and blunt ultimatum. Especially, if a warm and agreeable relationship had been developed from the get go.

Last edited by CApainter; 08-10-2017 at 12:35 PM..
CApainter is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CApainter For This Useful Post:
RH (08-10-2017)
Old 08-10-2017, 12:57 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
PACman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: North central Ohio
Posts: 11,338
Rewards Points: 158
Thanks: 2,999
Thanked 4,712 Times in 3,179 Posts
View PACman's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Don't take the liability of the paint manufacturers questionable marketing upon your business or yourself. Consumers are firmly convinced by false and misleading advertising by the paint companies that they will only need one coat of whatever product to cover. That is on the paint manufacturers, and it should not be on you! getting a gallon of free paint under the manufacturers warranty is one thing, providing labor free of charge because of the failure of that product to perform as advertised is another. Don't do it. Cover your a55 just like you did. If the consumer feels that they can convince whatever paint company they buy from to pay labor for a second coat than have at it with the original contract. But we all know that isn't going to happen.

This false advertising frequently creates these situations, and in the end if you don't protect yourself with a contract that protects your interests, only the paint manufacturers will profit from it.
slinger58 and Brushman4 like this.
__________________
"One who dares not offend cannot be honest." Thomas Paine-patriot

"I'll have a double scotch with a twist of bourbon" Rodney Dangerfield
PACman is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to PACman For This Useful Post:
chrisn (08-10-2017), RH (08-10-2017)
Old 08-10-2017, 03:53 PM   #8
RH
Moderator
 
RH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 19,278
Rewards Points: 6,966
Thanks: 11,871
Thanked 15,544 Times in 8,193 Posts
View RH's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PACman View Post
Don't take the liability of the paint manufacturers questionable marketing upon your business or yourself. Consumers are firmly convinced by false and misleading advertising by the paint companies that they will only need one coat of whatever product to cover. That is on the paint manufacturers, and it should not be on you! getting a gallon of free paint under the manufacturers warranty is one thing, providing labor free of charge because of the failure of that product to perform as advertised is another. Don't do it. Cover your a55 just like you did. If the consumer feels that they can convince whatever paint company they buy from to pay labor for a second coat than have at it with the original contract. But we all know that isn't going to happen.

This false advertising frequently creates these situations, and in the end if you don't protect yourself with a contract that protects your interests, only the paint manufacturers will profit from it.
Just went through that recently myself.

Bid a repaint with significant color change. HOs have always done their own painting but now can't due to age. Gave em' a two coat bid and the sticker shock (only because they've never paid someone to do their painting) immediately had them asking, "If we used Behr, wouldn't we be able to get by with one coat?" I still have a bandage on my tongue from biting it too hard.
chrisn, slinger58 and Brushman4 like this.
__________________
“Getting an inch of snow is like winning ten cents in the lottery.”

Bill Watterson
RH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2017, 09:00 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 218
Rewards Points: 436
Thanks: 22
Thanked 15 Times in 12 Posts
View Worker Bee's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Its not about so much buying the hype. Due to the shade of green and the shade of grey they are proposing Aura might actually cover it in one coat. I one painted a stark white house, battleship grey - one coat and that covered... T&M with a very cool home owner. 5' away youd swear it covered. 1' away meh you could see the white bleeding thruogh a little bit in some areas.

thats where I came up with that. However the creamy yellow doesnt have a prayer going over dark green.

Another thing, this is a while house on a semi busy street, I cant in good concious leave it one coat if it doesnt cover. itll look like crap no matter what the home owner says, hurting my impeccable reputation.

So today I delivered the change orders, if they want to change the color, I recommend Aura, two coats. If then want to keep the colors they have now, we can stay with duration one coat...

If that doesnt work for them I will gladly hand them back their check and walk away.
Brushman4 likes this.
Worker Bee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2017, 03:55 AM   #10
Senior Member
 
woodcoyote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,113
Rewards Points: 2,304
Thanks: 12
Thanked 840 Times in 579 Posts
View woodcoyote's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RH View Post
immediately had them asking, "If we used Behr, wouldn't we be able to get by with one coat?"
That's when you pull out your specs from the manufacturer that says a recommendation of 2 coats, and show it to them.
woodcoyote is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to woodcoyote For This Useful Post:
RH (08-11-2017)
Old 08-11-2017, 04:06 AM   #11
Senior Member
 
woodcoyote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,113
Rewards Points: 2,304
Thanks: 12
Thanked 840 Times in 579 Posts
View woodcoyote's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Here's my input.

Most costumers I deal with and have dealt with, always want 2 coats. It's something that's been pushed by painters and paint manufacturers for years. And of course anyone doing their own painting probably knows that it indeed takes 2 coats to get full sheen development and kill previous colors, usually.

With that being said, we actually win a lot of jobs over by saying we do 2 coats. Even if it's 1 thick coat followed by a piss coat, which counts as a second coat.

At the end of the day two or three, one or even 7 coats doesn't matter. What matters in the eyes of the paint spec/manufacturer is the DFT. If there isn't enough on there...can't really warranty/expect too much. Applicator error is what it'll end up being.

So long story short, bid 2 coats on everything and then if the price is high, back off to 1 coat. But always suggest 2 and make yourself look good like your putting on enough paint to have a super long lasting job.

Then look like a hero when it comes time to do the job and tell them you'll do any color. Some exceptions made in the detail section of the contract, but pretty much any color. Won't really matter too much for you because it'll already be spec'd for 2 coats and labor as well. You'll just look like the painter that doesn't charge for change orders due to color and the customer will be able to have more flexibility color wise on the job for the same budget.


In your current case though: Give your updated price to the guy. All money for change orders must be given up-front, prior to work starting.

If they don't agree, then back off the price and bid in labor + material + maybe 10% to break even on your second coat and walk away with the same profit you had originally assumed you would make. Time loss of money, but you didn't lose the job and you didn't lose profit. You can even sell them on the fact that you aren't even charging them any profit to do the second coat, that might guilt them into doing it and your just a nice guy trying to help them get their home repainted the way they want.

Worse case scenario, like others said. Just give him his money back and let him go his own way with another painter.

Just a note: Try not to turn down too many jobs. Always figure out a way if possible to salvage a deal that is already going to go through.
I already have my winter cap on and any jobs/food comes my way we're going to nail it down as it becomes scrap time, come winter.
CApainter likes this.
woodcoyote is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2017, 08:25 AM   #12
Senior Member
 
CApainter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA
Posts: 14,801
Rewards Points: 2,742
Thanks: 11,226
Thanked 9,653 Times in 5,492 Posts
View CApainter's Photo Album My Photos
Default

I think that given your good reputation, they will agree to the change order. Because at the end of the day, they just want the painting done and not have to deal with the painter any more.

One of the drawbacks of painting in my opinion, is it lends itself to too much emotion in place of logical agreements. Maybe it's the nature of the product the homeowners are seeking. They have a lot more emotional attachment to architectural designs and decor then they would to an HVAC install.

Last edited by CApainter; 08-11-2017 at 08:30 AM..
CApainter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2017, 06:32 PM   #13
very senior member
 
chrisn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Hagerstown md
Posts: 9,848
Rewards Points: 4
Thanks: 3,623
Thanked 5,523 Times in 3,391 Posts
View chrisn's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CApainter View Post
I think that given your good reputation, they will agree to the change order. Because at the end of the day, they just want the painting done and not have to deal with the painter any more.

One of the drawbacks of painting in my opinion, is it lends itself to too much emotion in place of logical agreements. Maybe it's the nature of the product the homeowners are seeking. They have a lot more emotional attachment to architectural designs and decor then they would to an HVAC install.
Yes, especially the mega rich that just have to have that $100 a gallon Farrow and Ball crap which is no better than Behr and that's being nice.
CApainter, slinger58 and Brushman4 like this.
__________________
It's PASTE, not glue
chrisn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2017, 09:25 PM   #14
RH
Moderator
 
RH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 19,278
Rewards Points: 6,966
Thanks: 11,871
Thanked 15,544 Times in 8,193 Posts
View RH's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CApainter View Post
I think that given your good reputation, they will agree to the change order. Because at the end of the day, they just want the painting done and not have to deal with the painter any more.

One of the drawbacks of painting in my opinion, is it lends itself to too much emotion in place of logical agreements. Maybe it's the nature of the product the homeowners are seeking. They have a lot more emotional attachment to architectural designs and decor then they would to an HVAC install.

I think the whole concept of painting often being an emotional factor for HOs is an interesting one. Let's face it, what we do is often one of the most visable aspects of a home and the colors chosen can have a big impact on the feelings of those living there.

Not to put too much of an emphasis on it, but I wonder how many guys go into a home and fail to realize how much of an impact what they do will possibly have on the residents. And I suspect that those who convey a bit of empathy (and often patience) about this, rather than just treating it like a nuts and bolts project, may get a lot of return business and referral work.
CApainter and lilpaintchic like this.
__________________
“Getting an inch of snow is like winning ten cents in the lottery.”

Bill Watterson
RH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2017, 10:06 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
lilpaintchic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Blue Marble, Earth
Posts: 4,010
Rewards Points: 5,006
Thanks: 3,702
Thanked 1,897 Times in 1,217 Posts
View lilpaintchic's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RH View Post
I think the whole concept of painting often being an emotional factor for HOs is an interesting one. Let's face it, what we do is often one of the most visable aspects of a home and the colors chosen can have a big impact on the feelings of those living there.

Not to put too much of an emphasis on it, but I wonder how many guys go into a home and fail to realize how much of an impact what they do will possibly have on the residents. And I suspect that those who convey a bit of empathy (and often patience) about this, rather than just treating it like a nuts and bolts project, may get a lot of return business and referral work.
Totally agree. Color is a feeling!

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
lilpaintchic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2017, 07:55 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 218
Rewards Points: 436
Thanks: 22
Thanked 15 Times in 12 Posts
View Worker Bee's Photo Album My Photos
Default

So since dropping off the second bid price and stuff, I havent heard from them.

I dont have their number so tomorrow I am going to go over there and get this straightened out.

I am not risking my reputation on an 'if'
Worker Bee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2017, 08:04 PM   #17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 1,274
Rewards Points: 199
Thanks: 85
Thanked 410 Times in 307 Posts
View PNW Painter's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Unless they start posting about you online, I don't think it's risking or damaging your reputation in any way. Some people take awhile to make a decision or they may have chosen someone else.

Personally, I wouldn't stop by their house either. Some people might feel intimidated or pressured if you do that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
PNW Painter is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to PNW Painter For This Useful Post:
Delta Painting (08-19-2017), RH (08-18-2017)
Old 08-18-2017, 08:52 PM   #18
RH
Moderator
 
RH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 19,278
Rewards Points: 6,966
Thanks: 11,871
Thanked 15,544 Times in 8,193 Posts
View RH's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PNW Painter View Post
Unless they start posting about you online, I don't think it's risking or damaging your reputation in any way. Some people take awhile to make a decision or they may have chosen someone else.

Personally, I wouldn't stop by their house either. Some people might feel intimidated or pressured if you do that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well said.

I'd also recommend not going over to their home. Many people would feel put off by it and you might even lose the job as a result. For now, just move on to your next one and put these people on your schedule when they finally decide.
__________________
“Getting an inch of snow is like winning ten cents in the lottery.”

Bill Watterson
RH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2017, 07:11 AM   #19
Senior Member
 
Delta Painting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,530
Rewards Points: 192
Thanks: 4,514
Thanked 738 Times in 524 Posts
View Delta Painting's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Paint job's are all about expectations. When you first meet the HO ask them what theirs are listen to what they say I find this one question solves a lot of headaches as the job progresses..
lilpaintchic likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Delta Painting is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2017, 08:38 AM   #20
RH
Moderator
 
RH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 19,278
Rewards Points: 6,966
Thanks: 11,871
Thanked 15,544 Times in 8,193 Posts
View RH's Photo Album My Photos
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Worker Bee View Post
So since dropping off the second bid price and stuff, I havent heard from them.

I dont have their number so tomorrow I am going to go over there and get this straightened out.

I am not risking my reputation on an 'if'

Sorry, but I have to ask; how did you get to this point with these people without having their phone number by now?
__________________
“Getting an inch of snow is like winning ten cents in the lottery.”

Bill Watterson
RH is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to RH For This Useful Post:
lilpaintchic (08-19-2017)
Reply

Tags
None

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Planning board opposes color change for Epping Wal-Mart Epoxy Pro Off Topic (Non Trade) 2 08-07-2017 12:57 AM
contract critiques? Woodco Business, Marketing, and Sales 35 06-12-2017 02:04 PM
Customer Who Can't Decide On Paint Colors Cricket General Painting Discussion 64 09-28-2016 09:52 PM
BM color calibration broken homeowner john General Painting Discussion 8 11-30-2015 10:18 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Our Pro Sites Network
ContractorTalk.com | DrywallTalk.com | ElectricianTalk.com | HVACSite.com | PlumbingZone.com | RoofingTalk.com