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Old 07-20-2014, 08:45 AM   #41
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Bryce

Good thread and posts, thanks for sharing.

My company (historically) has specialized in high end large resi new construction. In the past few years, we changed our approach a bit.

To your original post, yes, we dealt with a lot of collateral damage particularly toward the finish end of projects.

It is important when a space is finished to put up signage. "Finished Surfaces". With a list including: Do not set coffee cups on sills or window benches; Please, use nitrile gloves when installing ceiling and wall fixtures; Stocking feet only; blah blah blah.

Not that any one in particular is going to give a crap, but we are acting on behalf of the gc in declaring spaces finished.

We would always make sure to be the ones to go back and inspect our own finished spaces and mark with tape any scuffs, dings, dents or general boneheadery. Then we document it.

Usually, as the painters in the house, we have seen that it is the electricians walking through door jambs wearing toolbelts with 400 screw drivers and pliers sticking off them. And it is always obvious where the plumber dragged against the beadboard while installing the toy toy. And yup, the audio guys put the speaker wires in the wrong place inside the wall, and the drywall guys buried it all, so there are a few holes in the wall. Somebody opened the double hungs without the bumpers on and slammed the lock right up into the top jamb. Cabinet guys decided to pull the doors and plane the edges to change the reveals, and moved a few drawer pull locations while they were at it. Floor guys are the worst. Floor poly all over the baseboard and walls...on and on and on.

All extras. Sometimes we would carry an allowance just to get it into the budget because we all know it is going to happen. A line item of $3k for damage to finished surfaces. (We have a very substantial definition in our contract of exactly what "damage to finish surfaces" means.

Other times, the repairs would be done t&m. It is the gc's perogative whether to chase down the subs to recover the damage repair costs. That is not our business. But we usually can point them in the right direction. Good painters are basically forensic detectives with brushes.

We did modify our sequencing to minimize the likelihood of others coming in behind us and screwing it up, which helps, but also needs to be accounted for in the contract.

Overall, the gravity of any nc repair situation is always a reflection of percentage. $3k or repairs on a $250k paint contract is nothing. On a $6k contract it is going to land a bunch of people on the carpet.

In my early years of nc work, I would go along with the "just fix it and we will make it up to you on the next one, we have 6 houses in the pipeline" move. That is not reality.

Sometimes repairing damage and making it look like nothing ever happened takes more time than the initial paint work did.



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Old 07-20-2014, 09:46 AM   #42
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I still do not understand how a GC doesn't make sure their subs understand that causing damage to finished surfaces is not ok. On a big commercial job I can see where that would be almost impossible with hundreds of workers, but on a custom built home there is no excuse for it.

If I ever get my GC I will be one that explains this to them and they will be charged accordingly. They simply don't care if it doesn't cost them money, start hurting their bottom line and they will take a new approach. They should be treating it as if they were working in an occupied home and there was no one to touch up. How freaking hard is it to wash your hands or make sure you aren't tracking in mud?

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Lol so about the same as mine! I'm debating putting my entire OH spreadsheet on here, for all to scrutinize. Based on a lot of the posts/pms so far, a lot of ya'll might see a few things that should be added to your OH, and billing rates adjusted accordingly? Maybe we can get everyone up into the rock star billing rate status

I would love to see it and you are probably right there are some expenses I am missing that should be part of my OH.
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Old 07-20-2014, 10:03 AM   #43
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Quote:
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I still do not understand how a GC doesn't make sure their subs understand that causing damage to finished surfaces is not ok. On a big commercial job I can see where that would be almost impossible with hundreds of workers, but on a custom built home there is no excuse for it.
I really think it comes down to how proactive they are rather than reactive. As a finisher, we also have to be proactive in keeping the GC informed of damage being done to finished surfaces. Let them deal with the other trades.

The GC I do a lot of work for is a tyrant when it comes to this kind of thing. Last winter a plumber hacked a hole through a finished wall in the wrong place to run a line. Also dinged up other walls in several different spots just by being an idiot. GC made him fix the drywall and told the plumbers boss this was happening on his dime. Finished product looked horrible and we had to repair it, but the guy was a hell of a lot more careful in the future.

Electricians dropping copper clippings on finished flooring results in all hell breaking loose and they get run off the job.
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Old 07-20-2014, 11:16 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by straight_lines View Post
I still do not understand how a GC doesn't make sure their subs understand that causing damage to finished surfaces is not ok. On a big commercial job I can see where that would be almost impossible with hundreds of workers, but on a custom built home there is no excuse for it.

If I ever get my GC I will be one that explains this to them and they will be charged accordingly. They simply don't care if it doesn't cost them money, start hurting their bottom line and they will take a new approach. They should be treating it as if they were working in an occupied home and there was no one to touch up. How freaking hard is it to wash your hands or make sure you aren't tracking in mud?

I would love to see it and you are probably right there are some expenses I am missing that should be part of my OH.
I normally don't do new construction work as part of a larger GC project. However, I do work around places where I have to constantly post caution signs, string yellow caution tape, or place barriers to redirect people from entering places I've worked.

In a new construction project, do painting contractors have a method of communicating to the GC and trade subs, that a particular area is off limits, and that entering and damaging the coating in a particular area will be subject to charges for necessary repairs? And is this even possible?
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Old 07-20-2014, 11:35 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CApainter
I normally don't do new construction work as part of a larger GC project. However, I do work around places where I have to constantly post caution signs, string yellow caution tape, or place barriers to redirect people from entering places I've worked. In a new construction project, do painting contractors have a method of communicating to the GC and trade subs, that a particular area is off limits, and that entering and damaging the coating in a particular area will be subject to charges for necessary repairs? And is this even possible?
Commercial NC the paint job getting destroyed is a given. It's not limited to one or two trade- the damage. Everyone gets a peice of the action. I've seen it get hung one one trade/contractor quite a few times. Culpability that is. But it is b.s. Everyone contributes.

You got to realize also. I forget the percentage, maybe someone knows. But it is tiny. The paint job on a building like the OP has here even with a complete repaint added as damage is a very small part of the buildings cost. It's tiny. So when it is time to turn that building over the G.C. Has literally a penny holding up a dollar.
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Old 07-20-2014, 11:45 AM   #46
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Thanks Oden. That makes sense.

One of the problems I would have on NC, if I were to provide one of my Cadillac jobs, would be having to touch up after the expected damages. A lot of paints don't allow for a quick swipe with a brush but instead, require an entire wall to be squared up.

It would drive me crazy given that almost every wall is expected to have some issue with it.
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Old 07-20-2014, 11:55 AM   #47
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Smart painters become very selective about nc work.

Others get really good with what has been known for decades as "builders white".

It's another one of those aspects where a painter can get lost on the treadmill of thinking "I'm busy, therefore I'm making money".

Some painters are raking in $18/hr self employed and others are $60-80 or more.

It's a choice.



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Old 07-20-2014, 01:11 PM   #48
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Quote:
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Commercial NC the paint job getting destroyed is a given. It's not limited to one or two trade- the damage. Everyone gets a peice of the action. I've seen it get hung one one trade/contractor quite a few times. Culpability that is. But it is b.s. Everyone contributes.

You got to realize also. I forget the percentage, maybe someone knows. But it is tiny. The paint job on a building like the OP has here even with a complete repaint added as damage is a very small part of the buildings cost. It's tiny. So when it is time to turn that building over the G.C. Has literally a penny holding up a dollar.
Well said, but the flip side of that is yes, its small change to the GC but it can be 'make or break' money for the PC.
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Old 07-20-2014, 01:19 PM   #49
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These work swell
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Old 07-20-2014, 01:26 PM   #50
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Some painters are raking in $18/hr self employed and others are $60-80 or more.

It's a choice.
Today I made $100/hr.
Bragging? yeah maybe a little
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Old 07-20-2014, 01:32 PM   #51
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Today I made $100/hr. Bragging? yeah maybe a little
If only they were ALL like that. I swear, sometimes it's the smaller jobs where I make the most money per hour. The trick is to line a bunch of them up though.
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Old 07-20-2014, 01:37 PM   #52
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If only they were ALL like that. I swear, sometimes it's the smaller jobs where I make the most money per hour. The trick is to line a bunch of them up though.

Small jobs can be quick cash.
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Old 07-20-2014, 01:50 PM   #53
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Smart paint contractors who have been around the block a few times make a big deal about not wanting to pit their final coat on.
Pages of emails. It's too soon. It's not ready. There are too many trades with work outstanding. They make the GC insist on the final. With a record of it. Helps em with the later inevitable repaint negotiations..
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Old 07-20-2014, 01:55 PM   #54
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If only they were ALL like that. I swear, sometimes it's the smaller jobs where I make the most money per hour. The trick is to line a bunch of them up though.
Yeah, they are definatly not all like that
3 hours but I'll take it on a Sunday.
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Old 07-20-2014, 02:34 PM   #55
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Thanks Schmidt!

That's exactly what I was thinking. And if I were on a job site, a sign like that would at least make me aware that I have to be a little more careful.
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Old 07-20-2014, 02:40 PM   #56
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Thanks Schmidt!

That's exactly what I was thinking. And if I were on a job site, a sign like that would at least make me aware that I have to be a little more careful.
And that's exactly what it dose. It's a reminder to the other trades to be careful with the finished paint job. If used, it WILL decrease trade damage.
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Old 07-20-2014, 02:44 PM   #57
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Boy, maybe I should pay more attention to the posts, let alone read them thoroughly. I feel like I plagiarized a snippet of Vermontpainter's comments.

I should probably be nominated for Donkey of the month, rather than paint pro.
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Old 07-20-2014, 02:58 PM   #58
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Boy, maybe I should pay more attention to the posts, let alone read them thoroughly. I feel like I plagiarized a snippet of Vermontpainter's comments.

I should probably be nominated for Donkey of the month, rather than paint pro.
Nah man, you didn't miss a thing. Just all part of the discussion.
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Old 07-20-2014, 05:39 PM   #59
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Boy, maybe I should pay more attention to the posts, let alone read them thoroughly. I feel like I plagiarized a snippet of Vermontpainter's comments.

I should probably be nominated for Donkey of the month, rather than paint pro.
Symbiosis.

You are one of the members I actually read every word of.



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Old 07-20-2014, 09:15 PM   #60
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These work swell
I've done work for a couple of GCs where they did that. As soon as the first coat went on, that sign went up, except it said all damage will be back charged to the trade

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