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Old 11-08-2019, 09:59 AM   #1
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Default Advice on wall of trim

Customer has asked that I paint his new wall that has a lot of trim. I'm not going to spray it. I hate the waste and the setup. All the plastic, and tape, and etc. So my plan is to roll the paint on and back brush. I'm planning on painting from the top / down. It is going to be white on white. Wall is BM Regal Select White Flat. The trim is Regal Select white pearl. I'm planning on using Floetrol in the trim paint to decrease dry time and promote better leveling.

Customer has already bought the paint. Would Advance level that much better to warrant buying that and returning the BM Select? The HO doesn't want a glossy / shiny finish.

Any suggestions on what you might do other then spraying the trim. It's not going to happen. I'm not that experienced and I HATE the extra waste.
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Old 11-08-2019, 10:55 AM   #2
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The Floetrol will increase, not decrease, dry time. That's what promotes the leveling.
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Old 11-08-2019, 11:43 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Lightningboy65 View Post
The Floetrol will increase, not decrease, dry time. That's what promotes the leveling.
We mean the same thing. To me a decrease in time is it takes longer. But as I type that it doesn't make sense, lol.
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Old 11-08-2019, 11:53 AM   #4
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We mean the same thing. To me a decrease in time is it takes longer. But as I type that it doesn't make sense, lol.
Well, words do have meaning, and language works best if we are all on the same page.

I was surprised when I read your OP, as you generally seem to know what's going on But at least you realize it doesn't make sense. I'd be lying if I said I never found myself in similar circumstances.

I think I might be inclined to go with the Advance, just seems to give a nicer finish and would give a nicer finish when applied with a mini velour roller, which those large flat trim boards are screaming to be painted with.
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Old 11-08-2019, 01:49 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cardgunner View Post
Customer has asked that I paint his new wall that has a lot of trim. I'm not going to spray it. I hate the waste and the setup. All the plastic, and tape, and etc. So my plan is to roll the paint on and back brush. I'm planning on painting from the top / down. It is going to be white on white. Wall is BM Regal Select White Flat. The trim is Regal Select white pearl. I'm planning on using Floetrol in the trim paint to decrease dry time and promote better leveling.

Customer has already bought the paint. Would Advance level that much better to warrant buying that and returning the BM Select? The HO doesn't want a glossy / shiny finish.

Any suggestions on what you might do other then spraying the trim. It's not going to happen. I'm not that experienced and I HATE the extra waste.
Without standing there looking directly at the walls and trim to decide exactly which brush and mini roller I would use (I have tote boxes filled with both in a wide variety), I would probably do this as follows:

1. Tape off whatever needs taping off (the floor?), then spackle and prime whatever needs.

2. Cut in trim edges and areas that mini roller won't adequately reach with trim paint once, twice if needed.

3. Mini roll either the vertical OR the horizontal sections of trim, but not both at the same time, making nice clean lines where the vertical trim butts up against the horizontal. This way you won't need to add any Floetrol because you will never be running into semi-dried trim paint with fresh. I assume that the owner is not having you try to make the butt joints dissappear, so the joint will allow for a visual break as far as keeping a wet edge goes. I would probably not brush anything out as the mini roller will leave a fairly smooth and uniform surface, but that is something you have to decide on.

4. While the horizontal (or vertical) trim is drying I would start cutting in the wall panels with the wall paint using a small brush to bring it out about an inch.

5. When done cutting in the walls, I would roll a 2nd coat on the previously painted trim if needed, then cut in the wall panels a second time if needed.

6. When the 1st section of trim is done, roll out a coat on the unpainted section of trim.

My idea is to keep going round robin so that you are always painting one section while waiting for the one you just painted to dry. Also, the butt joints are ideal for allowing you to paint the trim in 2 isolated section and always keep a very wet edge with no need for Floetrol at all.

For the trim I would probably use a Wooster 5/16" x 4" Micro Plush Jumbo Koter mini roller as it has a very good edge for rolling the butt joints on the trim. I use the 9" version of this to roll out flat doors and they come out very smooth.

https://www.woosterbrush.com/rollers...g/micro-plush/

For the panels of wall I would probably use the Sherwin Williams Contractor Series Woven Mini Rollers in a 3/8" nap.

https://www.sherwin-williams.com/hom...n-mini-rollers

If I would be leaving any section to repaint for an extended period of time I would put the mini rollers in zip-lock baggies and clean up.

Sorry for being so verbose, but at 11:45 am it should appear obvious to those at work that I am currently not at work.

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Old 11-08-2019, 01:58 PM   #6
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You couldn't ask for a more complete answer^^^.
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Old 11-08-2019, 02:10 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by futtyos View Post

3. Mini roll either the vertical OR the horizontal sections of trim, but not both at the same time, making nice clean lines where the vertical trim butts up against the horizontal. This way you won't need to add any Floetrol because you will never be running into semi-dried trim paint with fresh. I assume that the owner is not having you try to make the butt joints dissappear, so the joint will allow for a visual break as far as keeping a wet edge goes. I would probably not brush anything out as the mini roller will leave a fairly smooth and uniform surface, but that is something you have to decide on.

futtyos
Very good advice. And doing it in sections was something I didn't think of. However the HO does not want lines and is looking for a solid look. I'm caulking the butt joints and hoping for the best. To get a true solid would have required more attention during the install. It's good, made even great, but not all the joints are exactly flush.

After the Horizontal dries would you roll the vertical over the horizontal? so the cross sections will have 4 coats on them at days end ?

Thank you for time and advice.
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Old 11-08-2019, 03:51 PM   #8
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usually
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Originally Posted by Lightningboy65 View Post
You couldn't ask for a more complete answer^^^.
Odd, since futtyos is well know for his brevity (writes the guy often afflicted himself with keyboard diarrhea).
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Old 11-08-2019, 05:15 PM   #9
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Default Caulk joint perfection?

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Originally Posted by cardgunner View Post
Very good advice. And doing it in sections was something I didn't think of. However the HO does not want lines and is looking for a solid look. I'm caulking the butt joints and hoping for the best. To get a true solid would have required more attention during the install. It's good, made even great, but not all the joints are exactly flush.

After the Horizontal dries would you roll the vertical over the horizontal? so the cross sections will have 4 coats on them at days end ?

Thank you for time and advice.
cardgunner, my best guess is that even if you get a smoother finish on the joints by caulking them, they are still leave definate lines that can be rolled up to, and not ove, by your mini roller. If you were to over lap just a little on the butt joints, this might show up as a slightly extra sheen, but if you do 2 coats I don't think that the owner will notice anything. If you try to keep a wet edge on this big maze, I don't think you will succeed and this will be seen much more by the client than any very slight sheen differences on butt joint overlaps.

If you were using Advance I might agree that you could keep a wet edge, but I have my doubts about that when using Regal Select Pearl.

You might try using a wide spackle knife against the edge of the butt joints when rolling against them to avoid overlapping where you have already painted.

I am also guessing that if you do it the way I suggest, the owner will not be able to tell unless he stands there and watches you paint. Good luck,

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Old 11-08-2019, 06:03 PM   #10
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Ditch the floetrol and use extender instead. For the same price, you could use cabinet coat, advance or even scuff-X, nd any of those will level out great.
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Old 11-08-2019, 08:58 PM   #11
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mini velour roller! those are my favorite minis! Closest thing you will ever get to a a sprayed look without spraying. Bonus, you would get more material on with a mini roller than by spraying.
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Old 11-09-2019, 12:04 PM   #12
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mini velour roller! those are my favorite minis! Closest thing you will ever get to a a sprayed look without spraying. Bonus, you would get more material on with a mini roller than by spraying.
I agree that certain mini rolled applications can provide a more consistent finish than brushing. But I would disagree that, given identical paint properties, a rolled application provides a thicker paint film than spraying. The reason is the slightest of pressure with a roller, or brush, decreases the WFT compared to a steady spray application that builds up an uninterrupted WFT.

However, there are times when rollers can provide thicker finishes, but no where near a leveled finish as from spraying.

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Old 11-09-2019, 02:44 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cardgunner View Post
Very good advice. And doing it in sections was something I didn't think of. However the HO does not want lines and is looking for a solid look. I'm caulking the butt joints and hoping for the best. To get a true solid would have required more attention during the install. It's good, made even great, but not all the joints are exactly flush.



After the Horizontal dries would you roll the vertical over the horizontal? so the cross sections will have 4 coats on them at days end ?



Thank you for time and advice.


Iím concerned about caulking the butt joints if the HO doesnít want the seams to show. Iím pretty good at caulking, but it never gives me a smooth enough surface to hide joints. Iíd lean toward using a thin bead of wood filler or something you can use a knife on to smooth out. Again, maybe itís just me, but smoothing caulk to hide flat joints doesnít work well to hide the joint.
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Old 11-09-2019, 05:51 PM   #14
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I agree that certain mini rolled applications can provide a more consistent finish than brushing. But I would disagree that, given identical paint properties, a rolled application provides a thicker paint film than spraying. The reason is the slightest of pressure with a roller, or brush, decreases the WFT compared to a steady spray application that builds up an uninterrupted WFT.

However, there are times when rollers can provide thicker finishes, but no where near a leveled finish as from spraying.
I guess I have seen far to much light spray, entirely possible that spay could put on more material than rolling or brush but I have not seen that. A per a velour roller, it provides a beautiful finish but I always used them with a light touch. Pressure rolling never works with any kind of roller!
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Old 11-09-2019, 06:17 PM   #15
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I guess I have seen far to much light spray, entirely possible that spay could put on more material than rolling or brush but I have not seen that. A per a velour roller, it provides a beautiful finish but I always used them with a light touch. Pressure rolling never works with any kind of roller!
The instances where I see too thin of a sprayed coating, is when the paint was thinned too much, the passes were too quick , or when it was sprayed from a rattle can.

Whenever I had to gauge the WFT of a coating, I found that spraying would consistently build up a quicker WFT than rolling, because the slightest pressure placed on a roller reduces the film thickness in the valleys, even though it's pulling paint up in the peaks.
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Old 11-09-2019, 06:31 PM   #16
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I think people may tend to apply the finish a bit thinner when spraying, but there is no practical reason a roller would provide a thicker paint film. Whatever the maximum WFT of a coating, it is attainable with either roller or spray. One experienced in spraying can easily obtain the same thickness. One inexperienced in spraying is going to be hesitant, worrying about runs, and will likely apply a thinner coat. No doubt a sprayer will yield a smoother finish, although I have seen some pretty darn nice roll jobs.

Caulk will provide a more flexible joint filler than any filler. When filling joints in casework, this is critical as there will be movement of the joints as ambient conditions change. While a filler which allows skim coating, to blend the joint ,may initially hide the joint better, it has been my experience that eventually the patch will yield to the movement, revealing unsightly hairline cracks. I'd rather seal the joint with caulk and have the joint be a little more visible, but remain permanently sealed.
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Old 11-09-2019, 08:37 PM   #17
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Pressure rolling never works with any kind of roller!
Have you ever had to roll block filler on cinder block. I mean real old fashioned cinder block, not concrete block. Pock marks, holes, and voids everywhere!!!
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Old 11-09-2019, 08:53 PM   #18
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Caulk will provide a more flexible joint filler than any filler. When filling joints in casework, this is critical as there will be movement of the joints as ambient conditions change. While a filler which allows skim coating, to blend the joint ,may initially hide the joint better, it has been my experience that eventually the patch will yield to the movement, revealing unsightly hairline cracks. I'd rather seal the joint with caulk and have the joint be a little more visible, but remain permanently sealed.

I understand the need for flexibility...probably more-so with this area and temperature changes. Makes complete sense! Hopefully the HO understands that seams wonít likely be invisible...and would certainly much look worse later with cracks from an inflexible joint filler.
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Old 11-09-2019, 11:32 PM   #19
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I find for getting a hard/not gummy finish using a "normal" latex paint on trim, or even something like Proclassic, Solo, or Regal Select where they're sort of inbetween wall paint and a proper trim paint oil or shellac priming really is needed to get it feeling harder and long term durable. Plus, with both primers you could actually sand out most or all of your brush marks or roller stipple.

For rolling, I think your best "spraylike" finish would probably come from Wooster "Red Feather" roller covers. These give about as good of a finish or even a little better finish than a foam cover, but without the amount of droplets the foam ones make. The secret to using those or any roller on trim is to basically roll in the same direction with the nap down, and actually look at the nap when rolling, and only roll "down" as if you roll "up" you'll get more stipple. I don't mean literally up and down, but the nap compressed vs decompressed.

Another good cover to try, too, would be the Arroworthy 3/8" microfiber covers in a 4" or 6" cover. Those can level off/leave a worse finish depending on your paint, especially if it's too thick, but with the right paint they look as good as a foam or the Wooster Red Feathers, and their paint holding capacity is pretty enormous, which can minimizing flashing by allowing you to just keep going while rolling.

For the paint itself, my only complaint about BM paints in general is they seem to have a pretty high sensitivity overall to environmental conditions as far as leveling or flashing goes. I think the pearl sheen of Regal has a slower recoat time/dry time than other sheens, but you'll want to make sure the room temperature and humidity is good. You'd ideally want something like 65F with some humidity but not too much as then you can run into adhesion or curing issues (fog on the windows means it can be too high...) In an occupied house in winter it can be kind of bad for painting, as a lot of people want to turn their heat way up, and there's less humidity in general. I've not used Floetrol in trim paint, the most I've ever done was go with the up to 8 oz water, and that was it. It helps, but it can't totally overcome the environmental conditions.
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Old 11-10-2019, 12:30 AM   #20
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Have you ever had to roll block filler on cinder block. I mean real old fashioned cinder block, not concrete block. Pock marks, holes, and voids everywhere!!!
No, but if I did I'd use a really plushy sleeve! I have seen people practically ring a roller out on a wall though. That might work if you want to do 4 coats. (Never tried that myself.)
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