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Old 08-04-2015, 01:51 AM   #1
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Default Epic millwork adhesion failure

I'm current subbing for a company that had a spectacular adhesion failure using Satin Impervo Waterborne over an existing alkyd finish that also had a wax or glaze on it. Apparently the crew cleaned the surface with Naptha and lighty sanded. Unfortunately their prep didn't remove the wax or glaze that was on the millwork.

Here's a pic, but you can literally peel the new paint off with a putty knife.



We've now spent 3 man days scraping and sanding all the peeling paint. Following this we'll clean all the millwork with deglosser prior to priming and top coating.

Can anybody recommend a bonding primer? I've picked up Stix, BIN and BIN Advance thinking that one of the three should work.


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Old 08-04-2015, 01:57 AM   #2
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Will a deglosser do the same job as a wax remover?
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Old 08-04-2015, 04:26 AM   #3
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That is epic! I think you should take the cleaning more seriously than just deglosser. Otherwise you may be in the same boat. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of KRud Kutter gloss off but I think maybe a scotchbrite pad with jasco no-rinse tsp, sanding, then follow with deglosser might help more. And probably ought to do q small test area and wait until next day for an adhesion test.
Adhesion primer also a great idea as you mentioned. They will all spec removing grease and wax first. Stix is great. Smart prime works well.
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Old 08-04-2015, 06:01 AM   #4
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Will a deglosser do the same job as a wax remover?
NO
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Old 08-04-2015, 08:58 AM   #5
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Damon, thanks for the advice on the Jasco no rinse TSP and primers. I wish I picked up some Smartprime when I was at the BM store near Green Lake yesterday.

At this point I've experimented with 100, 150 grit sandpaper and maroon scotchbrite pads after all the paint was scraped. The scotchbrite pads have done the best job of removing the wax and producing a nice dull and uniform surface compared to sandpaper. Despite this, I'd still like to clean the surface with TSP before I perform the adhesion test with the primer.

Luckily, I started working on this job after the millwork had been painted. I'd hate to be responsible for the failure, but I was tasked with fixing it.


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Old 08-04-2015, 11:31 AM   #6
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Can anybody recommend a bonding primer? I've picked up Stix, BIN and BIN Advance thinking that one of the three should work.
FWIW, I would think any quality bonding primer that you have had success with in the past would adhere here too, once the surface is prepped well.
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Old 08-04-2015, 04:24 PM   #7
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Why would they have cleaned it with naphtha? And what wax? or whatever would be on the millwork? I'd wonder. And not for nothing but plenty of times a outfit will say they did this sell they will do this and didn't and don't so, up to and including what the topcoat of paint was so I wouldn't assume anything on what they really did and used.

What they sure didn't do was a 'mock up' and whatever u do go with, put in one square cabinet. Make sure it's cool. Before you mass produce,
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Old 08-04-2015, 04:43 PM   #8
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Why would they have cleaned it with naphtha? And what wax? or whatever would be on the millwork? I'd wonder. And not for nothing but plenty of times a outfit will say they did this sell they will do this and didn't and don't so, up to and including what the topcoat of paint was so I wouldn't assume anything on what they really did and used.

What they sure didn't do was a 'mock up' and whatever u do go with, put in one square cabinet. Make sure it's cool. Before you mass produce,
Naphtha, especially Varnish Makers' and Painters' is often called out to degrease surfaces. The biggest issue with it seems to be from not changing cleaning rags often enough.

The photo looks like a medical cabinet. We've certainly seen plenty of surface contamination in bathrooms from hair products and other aerosols.
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Old 08-04-2015, 05:11 PM   #9
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We were painting at Carly's parents new house, there was a semi rough venetian plaster wall they said they wanted skimmed over. I could see a shine in some places. Knowing from past work around that and asking on here there was a wax the plaster guy didn't remove. 2 days later plaster was coming off the wall in chunks. Day 3 damn near half the wall was on the floor or ready to fall.

I explained to the GC, plaster guy and Carly's parents that the wax had to be removed. The GC and plaster guy didn't believe me.

The plaster guy in the long run stripped the plaster (yes every bit came off), removed the wax and re plastered. The wall is still fine.
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Old 08-04-2015, 05:53 PM   #10
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It always amazes me how you could explain to the plaster guy and gc what the problem was and they wouldnt believe you. Some people refuse to see the what is right in front of their face.
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:13 AM   #11
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I really wonder about any modern finish that includes wax. Seems like a fail waiting to happen.
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Old 08-05-2015, 02:37 AM   #12
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Gough, the failure was isolated to all the millwork in the master bedroom, which included baseboards, crown molding, fire place and a radiator cover with built-ins. The house was built in the 50's.

Oden, you're right that they should have done a 'mockup' the first time. This time we aggressively sanded with scotchbrite pads and then cleaning everything with deglosser (the store I went to didn't have TSP). I tested three areas with an oil based primer we had onsite (I can't remember the name) and let it dry over night. I couldn't scrape the primer off with a finger nail or putty knife the following morning so we went ahead and primed all the millwork.


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Old 08-05-2015, 09:08 PM   #13
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The primer we ended up using was Zinsser AllPrime in an oil base.


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Old 08-05-2015, 09:16 PM   #14
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Zinsser allprime oil based is a decent product.
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Old 08-05-2015, 09:26 PM   #15
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The primer we ended up using was Zinsser AllPrime in an oil base.


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That's Cover Stain. Good choice. I really doubt you'll have ANY problems with adhesion.
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Old 08-05-2015, 10:20 PM   #16
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NO
Didn't think so
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Old 08-05-2015, 11:11 PM   #17
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That's Cover Stain. Good choice. I really doubt you'll have ANY problems with adhesion.


Is it coverstain? A store here in town sells both and coverstain is about 3 more dollars per gallon. They claim it is a better product.
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Old 08-05-2015, 11:32 PM   #18
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Is it coverstain? A store here in town sells both and coverstain is about 3 more dollars per gallon. They claim it is a better product.
There are at least 5 unique CSs that Zinsser makes, which may be adding to the confusion.

http://www.rustoleum.com/product-cat...primer-sealers
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Old 08-06-2015, 08:01 AM   #19
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Is it coverstain? A store here in town sells both and coverstain is about 3 more dollars per gallon. They claim it is a better product.
That's what my paint store tells me. It's just CS relabeled for Allpro.
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