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Old 07-30-2017, 08:26 PM   #1
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Default Exterior Stain Still Coming Through

I hope everyones summer is going great! So far my exterior season has been very smooth with little problems revolving around the work. But today I was suppose to be finishing a soffit job (Stucco house with rough cut cedar soffits) that had heavy staining. They were unfinished so I used Zinnser Cover Stain Oil primer, we cut and handrolled the primer on thick then sprayed TWO top coats. They looked great and I was suppose to be done with the job but the homeowner asked if I could wash his back stucco wall.

Of course I say yes so I wash it down and it looks nice. I avoided the soffits Then these stains started to come through!! Did I miss a step or something?

It just sucks because there is latex over the oil and my solutions are cut in half. I am headed back out tomorrow while I leave my crew to start a new house, I am guessing I need to get a water-base stain sealer and some more color.

Suggestions?
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Old 07-30-2017, 08:36 PM   #2
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Use a long dry oil and repaint....ya may be able to spot prime and touch up depending on how bad it it but ime, cedar needs a long dry and maybe a splash of thinner to aid penetration...
I guess you could try another coat of cs at this point if you're willing to roll the dice, but a water based primer won't touch that tannin, you'll be chasing it forever.

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Old 07-30-2017, 09:04 PM   #3
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We ended up thinning the Cover Stain 25% with thinner so it released and soaked in.

You think Zinnser Shellac Primer would seal those out? I can apply that over the latex, correct?
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Old 07-30-2017, 09:59 PM   #4
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Not in an exterior application. Shellac is an interior product.

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Old 07-30-2017, 10:00 PM   #5
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You can throw an oil based primer over latex with no problem, not sure what the hesitation might be from?


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Old 07-30-2017, 11:10 PM   #6
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Oil base over latex?
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Old 07-31-2017, 12:05 AM   #7
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Primer, yes. In an ideal world a good coat of long dry probably would be been better to start with but coverstain will work. Over rough cedar I'd probably have gone with 2 coats. 1 to penetrate and 1 for insurance against tannin. It sounds like you were probably ok until the water got introduced, assuming it's only on the side that was pw'd after it was painted? If all seams up there were caulked you probably wouldn't have had a problem...not a big deal if they aren't (I'm making an assumption) until you have to get it wet. It'll get behind the paint and bleed from the other side which (I think) is what you're seeing. If it didn't happen in your first cost of latex that is....doesnt sound like you saw it then.
I'm guessing here, but I'd bet that even if it were long dry up there, it still woulda happened if my assumption is right about water being shot in those corners. .. maybe just not quite as bad? Kinda hard to say...either way, yes, you can use an oil based primer to correct the issue. Hit it, let it dry thoroughly and test a spot with latex. If you're still seeing bleed, hit it again with your primer then top coat. Done. I'd stick a moisture meter up there real quick to make sure it's dry beneath the surface. . You're in eastern Oregon and I'm betting it's hot and it's dried out especially with those vents (if they're functioning properly)...it just takes a little bit of water to create that kind of situation....good luck! And keep cool/hydrated next week, it's gonna be a scorcher!

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Old 07-31-2017, 07:43 AM   #8
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Another option that I've used also in select instance is this:
https://www.sherwin-williams.com/pai...locking-primer
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Old 07-31-2017, 08:19 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodcoyote View Post

Another option that I've used also in select instance is this:
https://www.sherwin-williams.com/pai...locking-primer
Latex??? I wouldn't trust it, personally.

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Old 07-31-2017, 08:53 AM   #10
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Step one- stop using the cheap a55 Coverstain they de-contented for the Box stores and use a long oil alkyd. Coverstain isn't 1/4 the primer it was 20 years ago.
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Old 07-31-2017, 01:03 PM   #11
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I tend to like the BM 094/366 primer, which I guess is not a long oil, but it applies much nicer than the 100 long oil and the 366 is designed to be used under acrylic stains.

Also, for exteriors, I tend to not trust "multi purpose" primers. I think thinning Coverstain by 25% may have been a bit excessive also to maintain stain blocking ability.
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Old 07-31-2017, 02:09 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanV View Post
I tend to like the BM 094/366 primer, which I guess is not a long oil, but it applies much nicer than the 100 long oil and the 366 is designed to be used under acrylic stains.

Also, for exteriors, I tend to not trust "multi purpose" primers. I think thinning Coverstain by 25% may have been a bit excessive also to maintain stain blocking ability.
"Multi-purpose" actually means "pretty mediocre at anything".
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Old 07-31-2017, 02:58 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThreeSistersPainting View Post
We ended up thinning the Cover Stain 25% with thinner so it released and soaked in.

You think Zinnser Shellac Primer would seal those out? I can apply that over the latex, correct?
You actually can use BIN. They just don't recommend it as a full exterior primer. I recently coated a temporary door with it that was made out of interior subfloor grade plywood. The door went through an entire winter without any staining or swelling.

From Zinsser BIN TDS:

EXTERIOR
Use B-I-N Shellac-Base Primer to spot prime persistent bleed from knots and sap streaks before full surface priming with a water-based or oil-based primer.
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Old 07-31-2017, 03:55 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CApainter View Post
You actually can use BIN. They just don't recommend it as a full exterior primer. I recently coated a temporary door with it that was made out of interior subfloor grade plywood. The door went through an entire winter without any staining or swelling.

From Zinsser BIN TDS:

EXTERIOR
Use B-I-N Shellac-Base Primer to spot prime persistent bleed from knots and sap streaks before full surface priming with a water-based or oil-based primer.
If you prime over BIN it works outside. I wouldn't do much more than spot prime even if i was doing a full coat of oil primer over it. I don't think you are actually supposed to use it on any "spot" bigger than a square foot in size on exterior applications. (I don't think that is on the spec sheet. I think i remember it from a training session.)
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Old 07-31-2017, 05:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PACman View Post
If you prime over BIN it works outside. I wouldn't do much more than spot prime even if i was doing a full coat of oil primer over it. I don't think you are actually supposed to use it on any "spot" bigger than a square foot in size on exterior applications. (I don't think that is on the spec sheet. I think i remember it from a training session.)
I would definitely use BIN to address the OP's dilemma.
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Old 07-31-2017, 06:04 PM   #16
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I ended up using covercoat over the stained areas then cut and rolled color. Came out great, went against everything I thought I knew
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Old 07-31-2017, 06:17 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThreeSistersPainting View Post
I ended up using covercoat over the stained areas then cut and rolled color. Came out great, went against everything I thought I knew
I'm assuming it was coverstain? I'm glad you found a new piece of info for your bag'o'tricks. yes, cs works interior or exterior and (ime) works well over just about any stain I can think of...i only use shellac if I absolutely have to(on interiors) or a very small spot or 2 on exterior surfaces...like .CA said, knots or sap only really...glad you got it worked out, and can get off to the bank now!!$$
And I, too, wouldn't have put 25% thinner in for the reasons dean stated...maybe 5% or a splash more...just enough to get a good flow and some penetration, especially if it was hot out.


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Old 08-01-2017, 07:26 PM   #18
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Can I ask a question?

I think in something LPC said, that if the seams were caulked, the water may not have been an issue. So, would that be SOP to caulk a soffit area? I'm kind of thinking things need to breath. Yes? No?
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Old 08-02-2017, 12:54 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxlynn View Post
Can I ask a question?

I think in something LPC said, that if the seams were caulked, the water may not have been an issue. So, would that be SOP to caulk a soffit area? I'm kind of thinking things need to breath. Yes? No?
you are correct in that things need to breathe. Personally, we follow installers procedures. If they didn't caulk it it's assumed that it is either "blind caulked" as with cedar siding and such or that there is a reason for it's absence. We remove and replace caulk that is visibly failing. On work we install as a construction company, we caulk what needs to be caulked and if it's appropriate for the installation, or to add asthetic value (such as an overlay of leaded bead board soffits) we would caulk the soffits to the siding.
For the ops project, it's assumed that it's unnecessary but likely wouldn't be problematic if it was but a nightmare for him to do it tight to the stucco or whatever the siding type was (can't remember now but it was porous). The soffit was unpainted prior to his job. And it's pretty typical for that to be the case with stained stuff as caulk doesn't take stain well if at all. Hence the blind caulking method I mentioned thiugh thats usually on window and door openings and stuff.A soffit doesn't get wet (typically) in that area so it's kinda up to discernment and budget and contractor...it is vented, so caulking it now that it was going to be painted wouldn't hurt anything. Hope that made sense and somebody correct me if I'm wrong or missing something.

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Old 08-02-2017, 04:03 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PACman View Post
If you prime over BIN it works outside. I wouldn't do much more than spot prime even if i was doing a full coat of oil primer over it. I don't think you are actually supposed to use it on any "spot" bigger than a square foot in size on exterior applications. (I don't think that is on the spec sheet. I think i remember it from a training session.)
What primers would you apply over BIN in these cases and what's the advantage to doing so?
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