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Old 12-13-2019, 03:26 PM   #1
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Default Fish eyes in cratering in breakthrough 250

Has anyone ever had this before? Used smart Prime went on no problem. Have cratering with the 250 even after second coat. Happens even when laid flat. Also getting Orange Peel. Using a 310 fine finish tip with the Titan 440
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Old 12-13-2019, 03:28 PM   #2
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Can't figure out how to add picture on my phone or I would. It's like hundreds of tiny little pin holes right as the paint goes on.
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Old 12-13-2019, 11:17 PM   #3
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Ok here are a couple pics. one is right after spraying and the other is dry. my only thought is this could be a temperature thing as I was spraying in a garage. The temp was in the low 50's, which is (barely) within the range for breakthrough, but still within the range. Is this something that could be temp related? As a test tried some cabinet coat i had in the truck, same problem. Hmm must be either temp or something else in the air. The primer went on just fine.
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Old 12-14-2019, 06:57 AM   #4
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How long did you let the primer dry.? With it being that cool, i'd say your primer wasn't dry..or not compatible with the breakthrough. It's nice to have temps around 70deg. with 50% humidity for fine finishing. I also like to wait 24hrs before topcoating..You may have to remove paint or skim in cratering and reprime..
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Old 12-14-2019, 10:30 AM   #5
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I imagine its something with the temperatures and previous coat not being cured enough. I would let it dry a couple days sand it well and see if spraying another coat fixes it. Try to warm up your spray area and maybe thin the breakthrough with flotrol or water. I do not spray a lot and only breakthrough once but that is all I can think of.


Trouble with water based paints in my experience is they do not sand near as well as oil based so its harder to fix if there is a problem in the finish. I'm trying to get away from oils but there is nothing like sanding an oil finish to a powder and spraying the top coat smooth as glass.
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Old 12-14-2019, 11:52 AM   #6
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Thanks guys, I hadn't thought about the primer not drying. I smart Primed the night before and top-coated in the morning, it was at least 14 hrs between prime and top coat. Did a temp check this morning and it is in the low 60s in this garage, so I would have thought that would be far enough within the safe zone, but as my first boss liked to say, " painting can be a humbling trade sometimes" ๐Ÿ˜„.

Last night I started wondering if there was some sort of contamination in the line because of the smart Prime. I believe it is a hybrid similar to advance, and have read elsewhere on paint talk about Advance contaminating lines because of the alkyds. Hmm..

I'm fortunate to have some very gracious customers on this job, and they do not think it is necessary to recoat. I'm lucky this is a satin Sheen too.
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Old 12-14-2019, 12:01 PM   #7
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On second thought, not sure about line contamination as the cabinet boxes inside sprayed out just fine. The only other variable that can think of is I sanded the doors after Prime, and left the boxes because they were real smooth still. I used that blue Norton saint-gobain paper 220 Grit. I believe I've read about possible sandpaper contamination on here. Hmmm...
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Old 12-14-2019, 12:45 PM   #8
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Default Pinholes in sprayed finish

After viewing the pic close-up, these appear to be pinholes you're experiencing, completely unrelated to contamination btw. My guess is the finish is being applied too heavy when sprayed flat, (at least given the temperatures you're working in). That would certainly explain the orange peel texture. You said the boxes you sprayed had no issues, probably due to you having to spray a little lighter to avoid runs.

Try first spraying a light dusting coat, allowing it to flash off, then apply a full coat, but avoid double-passes. Also, heating up the paint will help to lower the viscosity, which should take care of the orange peel problem. Additives such as Butyl Cellosolve would help to lower the surface tension and help eliminate the risk of pinholes in the finish, (assuming it's sprayed at the correct psi, mils, & at proper temps/viscosity).
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Old 12-14-2019, 08:12 PM   #9
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[QUOTE=stelzerpaintinginc.;1672901]After viewing the pic close-up, these appear to be pinholes you're experiencing, completely unrelated to contamination btw. My guess is the finish is being applied too heavy when sprayed flat, (at least given the temperatures you're working in). That would certainly explain the orange peel texture. You said the boxes you sprayed had no issues, probably due to you having to spray a little lighter to avoid runs.

Try first spraying a light dusting coat, allowing it to flash off, then apply a full coat, but avoid double-passes. Also, heating up the paint will help to lower the viscosity, which should take care of the orange peel problem. Additives such as Butyl Cellosolve would help to lower the surface tension and help eliminate the risk of pinholes in the finish, (assuming it's sprayed at the correct psi, mils, & at proper temps/viscosity).[/QUOTE

I agree with the description of the pinholes. Looking at the finish it does look like there was either too much or not enough paint. I don't believe it's a technique issue though, as I originally sprayed the doors vertically too, and only sprayed some flat after I was having the issue. I've finished a lot of doors and trim packs, and I've never seen paint laying out like it did on the doors. I tried running hot water on a gallon for 15-20 mins this morning similar to texture can, seems like it may have helped a little but not a drastic difference. Thank you for the info on the butyl Cellosolve I will look into that.
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Old 12-15-2019, 06:08 AM   #10
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Not tacking off the dust from sanding could do that, also if you didn't clean your sprayer well enough. I've had that issue with cross contamination from hybrid products..I wipe my surfaces with microfibre cloths. I also run a little cleaner like eco tsp through my sprayer to scrub the lines between products..

Quote:
Originally Posted by fromthenorthwest View Post
Thanks guys, I hadn't thought about the primer not drying. I smart Primed the night before and top-coated in the morning, it was at least 14 hrs between prime and top coat. Did a temp check this morning and it is in the low 60s in this garage, so I would have thought that would be far enough within the safe zone, but as my first boss liked to say, " painting can be a humbling trade sometimes" ๐Ÿ˜„.

Last night I started wondering if there was some sort of contamination in the line because of the smart Prime. I believe it is a hybrid similar to advance, and have read elsewhere on paint talk about Advance contaminating lines because of the alkyds. Hmm..

I'm fortunate to have some very gracious customers on this job, and they do not think it is necessary to recoat. I'm lucky this is a satin Sheen too.
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Old 12-17-2019, 04:27 PM   #11
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Thanks Kevyn. I remember reading on another thread you had said one of your machines was contaminated by Advance so I thought maybe the same thing happened with the smart prime. Only evidence against that is that the boxes inside the house sprayed out just fine. As far as the sanding goes I vacuumed the door, though I didn't actually tack off. The more I think the more it seems it was a temperature/viscosity issue like what you and several others were mentioning earlier. Thanks for all the feedback! Luckily that job is over and done with. For the most part it turned out good, but I knocked 10% off the bill and I can chalk one up to experience, as I am wanting to get more into the cabinet refinishing. Next time I'll get a good space heater.
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Old 12-17-2019, 06:06 PM   #12
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Have you tried breakthrough primer ?
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Old 12-17-2019, 07:34 PM   #13
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Never heard of breakthrough primer. Is the 250 the low Voc or older high voc? I tried the newer low voc once or twice but it was too thin and ran too much. Used their wrought iron black. Loved the high voc. Now using Scuff X. Guessing it was a temp / curing issue too. You got lucky they accepted it!!
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Old 12-17-2019, 08:25 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fromthenorthwest View Post
Thanks Kevyn. I remember reading on another thread you had said one of your machines was contaminated by Advance so I thought maybe the same thing happened with the smart prime. Only evidence against that is that the boxes inside the house sprayed out just fine. As far as the sanding goes I vacuumed the door, though I didn't actually tack off. The more I think the more it seems it was a temperature/viscosity issue like what you and several others were mentioning earlier. Thanks for all the feedback! Luckily that job is over and done with. For the most part it turned out good, but I knocked 10% off the bill and I can chalk one up to experience, as I am wanting to get more into the cabinet refinishing. Next time I'll get a good space heater.
Ya, the spray game can be stressful. Definitely more fickle than brush and roll. Prepwork and conditions need to be alot more optimal. If it's a small project with less than optimal conditions, brush and roll is sometimes a better option.
However, spraying cabinets for me has been a game changer. I have a space where the climate is somewhat controlled and rarely have any issues now. (knock on wood.)
Glad it worked out in the end.
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Old 12-17-2019, 08:55 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finishesbykevyn View Post
Ya, the spray game can be stressful. Definitely more fickle than brush and roll. Prepwork and conditions need to be alot more optimal. If it's a small project with less than optimal conditions, brush and roll is sometimes a better option.
However, spraying cabinets for me has been a game changer. I have a space where the climate is somewhat controlled and rarely have any issues now. (knock on wood.)
Glad it worked out in the end.
Of course you will now.
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Old 12-17-2019, 10:17 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Repaint Florida View Post
Have you tried breakthrough primer ?
Repaint I have not heard of that one either? Is that your primer of choice?
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Old 12-17-2019, 10:21 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damon T View Post
Never heard of breakthrough primer. Is the 250 the low Voc or older high voc? I tried the newer low voc once or twice but it was too thin and ran too much. Used their wrought iron black. Loved the high voc. Now using Scuff X. Guessing it was a temp / curing issue too. You got lucky they accepted it!!
Yep I did get a bit lucky. Not that I like getting by on jobs by getting lucky, but it was appreciated this time. A lot of the doors look good, the pictured ones i posted were probably the worst. I told them if it ever starts to bother them and they want the doors re-shot I don't mind at all.
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Old 12-18-2019, 12:03 AM   #18
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couple things, breakthrough is sooo fast it cant lay down if it craters like that. i think its a mixture of too fine of a tip, too high of a temp, and im not sure your primer was thoroughly dry. Have you tried PPG wall and wood primer, its latex and sands as good as the old ez sand. If you keep having this problem maybe try a little xim latex extender - that should slow your dry time a tad, maybe enough for it to fix itself
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Old 12-18-2019, 06:14 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by havepaintwilltravel View Post
couple things, breakthrough is sooo fast it cant lay down if it craters like that. i think its a mixture of too fine of a tip, too high of a temp, and im not sure your primer was thoroughly dry. Have you tried PPG wall and wood primer, its latex and sands as good as the old ez sand. If you keep having this problem maybe try a little xim latex extender - that should slow your dry time a tad, maybe enough for it to fix itself
I think you may have misread the OP. He said it was cold in his shop not hot.
A 310 FF tip is a great tip for spraying IMO. That's what I use. Although a paint conditioner/extender is a good idea also.
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Old 12-18-2019, 12:32 PM   #20
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Here's a link to an post on 10/7/19 https://www.painttalk.com/f2/ppg-bre...n79-1-a-94903/

this primer works great for us , heavy bodied and sand easy. Bonds great only neg is it's not a stain blocker

if your painting doors white this is a must have as we all know white doesn't cover good
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