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Old 06-11-2015, 08:51 PM   #21
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Ok now you guys are just showing off!
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:54 PM   #22
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Painters are not supposed to be this articulate, correct? This thread is enticing distant memories of chemistry classes. I did not take to chemistry classes well. Dummy it down for me guys. You know, "cheap paint ain't good, good paint ain't cheap." Stuff like that.
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:56 PM   #23
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Consider how the heat gun is employed in product removal... Let's also consider the heat generated from abrasives technology in order to "feather" the profile... What might we conclude?
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Old 06-11-2015, 09:07 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CApainter View Post
You make a good point about coalescence, where the dynamics of solvent (or water) evaporation helps to weave the film structure. However, that structure doesn't undergo an actual chemical conversion as is the case with thermoset epoxies, which create a monolithic structure via chemical conversion.
Water is a solvent! And, just about the most perfect one existing !
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Old 06-11-2015, 09:53 PM   #25
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Water is a solvent! And, just about the most perfect one existing !
I know.
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Old 06-11-2015, 10:10 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gough View Post
But some of the processes involved with the later phases of coalescence, like polymer chain entanglement or sufficiently strong to render the process virtually irreversible.

http://wwwcourses.sens.buffalo.edu/c...kinson2000.pdf
I'm certainly not an expert in the field of chemistry. But, from what I had learned in terms of the types of coatings, is that a thermoset plastic undergoes a completely different process of film development than a thermoplastic.

What I had interpreted as returning to a semblance of an original state, was more or less a loose reference comparing the ability of one to dissolve with solvents from which it was borne, compared to that of the other which its original state had been altered chemically. Essentially, rendering it resistant to dissolvisation by solvents from which it was borne.

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Old 06-11-2015, 10:16 PM   #27
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Go Warriors :

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Old 06-12-2015, 12:17 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CApainter View Post
I'm certainly not an expert in the field of chemistry. But, from what I had learned in terms of the types of coatings, is that a thermoset plastic undergoes a completely different process of film development than a thermoplastic.

What I had interpreted as returning to a semblance of an original state, was more or less a loose reference comparing the ability of one to dissolve with solvents from which it was borne, compared to that of the other which its original state had been altered chemically. Essentially, rendering it resistant to dissolvisation by solvents from which it was borne.
This post was worth it for this word alone!
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Old 06-12-2015, 08:14 AM   #29
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effete elitist esoteric erudite exhibitionists ! ! !



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Old 06-12-2015, 09:21 AM   #30
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This post was worth it for this word alone!
, but then I screwed up on the repost.

But the point I was making is valid.

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Old 06-12-2015, 09:29 AM   #31
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effete elitist esoteric erudite exhibitionists ! ! !
@daArch. Instigator.
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Old 06-12-2015, 09:38 AM   #32
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@daArch. Instigator.
at least do me the honor of calling me an

insufferable ineffective intrusive instigator



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Old 06-12-2015, 10:21 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CApainter View Post
You make a good point about coalescence, where the dynamics of solvent (or water) evaporation helps to weave the film structure. However, that structure doesn't undergo an actual chemical conversion as is the case with thermoset epoxies, which create a monolithic structure via chemical conversion.
Actually, I believe they do have a chemical structural change. They form something known as colloidal crystals which, while I'm not certain whether any electrons are exchanged or shared, does constitute a deformation of the polymers, which I would still consider a structure change and a chemical conversion (since it's not an actual technical term). The properties and structure of the film are different than the properties and structure of the original molecules in their emulsion, and that deformation of polymers isn't one that can be reversed as far as my research has shown.

Citation: http://wwwcourses.sens.buffalo.edu/c...kinson2000.pdf
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Old 06-12-2015, 11:34 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodford View Post
Actually, I believe they do have a chemical structural change. They form something known as colloidal crystals which, while I'm not certain whether any electrons are exchanged or shared, does constitute a deformation of the polymers, which I would still consider a structure change and a chemical conversion (since it's not an actual technical term). The properties and structure of the film are different than the properties and structure of the original molecules in their emulsion, and that deformation of polymers isn't one that can be reversed as far as my research has shown.

Citation: http://wwwcourses.sens.buffalo.edu/c...kinson2000.pdf
I won't pretend to be as knowledgeable as the rest of you, but, there is a difference between a conversion coating and a non conversion coating. Single component paints are non conversion (aside from oil/alkyds that cure by oxidation). Two component paints are conversion. Whether "conversion" has anything to do with the difference in chemical reaction of the two, I'll leave to the rest of you.

Bottom line, once cured, epoxies are different than single component paints, and Thermo plastics are different then thermoset plastics. For example, you can heat and reweld PVC because it is a thermoplastic, but you can't with thermosets.

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Old 06-12-2015, 01:03 PM   #35
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Woodford and CA'

Where did everybody else go?


((crickets))
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Old 06-12-2015, 01:47 PM   #36
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Woodford and CA'

Where did everybody else go?


((crickets))
I think you guys determined there's no difference in paints. So we're moving on.
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Old 06-12-2015, 03:01 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CApainter View Post
I won't pretend to be as knowledgeable as the rest of you, but, there is a difference between a conversion coating and a non conversion coating. Single component paints are non conversion (aside from oil/alkyds that cure by oxidation). Two component paints are conversion. Whether "conversion" has anything to do with the difference in chemical reaction of the two, I'll leave to the rest of you.

Bottom line, once cured, epoxies are different than single component paints, and Thermo plastics are different then thermoset plastics. For example, you can heat and reweld PVC because it is a thermoplastic, but you can't with thermosets.
Oh yes, oxidation functionally is very, very difference from coalescence and evaporation (though both do occur to some extent in paints that cure by oxidation). When oil based (or most other not latex aka "emulsion" paints) dry they form new crosslink bonds, which are true chemical bonds involving either covalent or ionic bonds (sharing or exchanging electrons, in simple terms). This is more than a structural change in the layout of the atoms; in emulsion paints the strength comes from an organized, crystalline layout. In oxidative process paints, the strength comes from the molecules actually bonding together. The end result of both are fairly functionally similar, though structurally they are quite dissimilar.
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Old 06-12-2015, 03:04 PM   #38
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Are you guys cutting and pasting this stuff from somewhere?
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Old 06-12-2015, 03:09 PM   #39
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Are you guys cutting and pasting this stuff from somewhere?
If you Google my paragraphs you'll find out
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Old 06-12-2015, 04:12 PM   #40
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Quote:
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Are you guys cutting and pasting this stuff from somewhere?
I'm sure the others already know this stuff. I'm just repeating what I learned on a very basic level. And that is, there are two types of plastics. Thermo and thermoset. These can be used to describe paint films.

Also, there are two types of processes occuring during paint film formation. One is a conversion and the other is a non conversion. Epoxies are in the conversion catagory. Conversion coatings are typically more resistant to solvents then non conversion coatings.

It's been awhile since I took the SSPC coatings course, but that's what I learned. And none of my posts have been copied and pasted. I haven't even visited wikipedia.
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