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Old 09-28-2017, 08:05 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by getrex View Post
Short version is PVA, Gardz, two coats of paint. If your ceiling paint is requiring three coats then you may be using the wrong product. We have had to switch to using a flat wall paint on ceilings because all of the ceiling paints are garbage.
The incident of which I spoke is the only time I've had to three coat knockdown ceilings. For old, discolored, or stained popcorn I usually spray 2 coats of primer, two coats of ceiling flat. The ceiling paint I use has not been an issue.
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Old 09-28-2017, 08:46 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by BhamPainter View Post
There's also this primer, which is a vinyl acrylic

http://www.prattandlambert.com/produ...erborne_primer

To the best of my understanding, vinyl acrylic is a mix of acrylic resins and PVA. I could be wrong, but I think it still has PVA in it. I'm here to learn--please correct me if I'm mistaken.
This is what I was referencing. As I said in my post.
http://www.prattandlambert.com/produ..._primer_sealer
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Old 09-28-2017, 09:08 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by SemiproJohn View Post
The incident of which I spoke is the only time I've had to three coat knockdown ceilings. For old, discolored, or stained popcorn I usually spray 2 coats of primer, two coats of ceiling flat. The ceiling paint I use has not been an issue.
Oh its not the ceiling paint that's the issue. Its the crap pva that's under it. Its not even adequate for a flat sheen topcoat let alone under eggshell or satin or anything else. It doesn't seal the drywall. Most anyone that's used pva and a descent primer in there life can tell the difference. If you're doing so many apartments and rentals for a builder that only cares about the cheapest they can get it done and doesn't care about the finish knock yourself out. Pva's great for that.
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Old 09-28-2017, 10:54 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by futtyos View Post
Woodco, I am sorry you had a bad experience spraying Gardz, but I would be curious to see what would happen if you rolled a nice thorough coat of Gardz before painting flat and a second coat of Gardz (as per directions) if you are painting ES or higher sheen. This works like a charm for me.

futtyos
We've already been through this. I believe the thread was several pages long. To sum it up: Ceiling flashed where I sprayed. After I realized that, I rolled another coat of gardz on all the walls to avoid future problems. Yes, its a good primer. I get it. I always use it to prime before wallpaper. I wont however, spray it as a primer in a whole house ever again, unless Im spec'c to backroll the primer. And why would anyone use a primer that you have to double coat before topcoating? I prime ONCE, and topcoat twice, unless I'm spec'd and GETTING PAID to do more, in which case, great.

The fact is, I get the same results with any other primer, or even using a flat wall paint as a primer. And, as I've just learned, leaving tape too long on the walls that have two coats of gardz and two topcoats, will still pull paint off the wall occasionally, so its not as bulletproof as it seems either.

Also, some of us dont get T+M to cut and roll two coats of expensive primer before topcoating. I have to give a price for a paint job, and it has to compete with several other companies, and I guarantee none of the other ones are putting two coats of high priced primer in their bids. Theres a delicate balance of quality and cost effectiveness that has to be considered, especially for people like me, who have only been on our own for a short time, and dont have an extensive client list and reputation. Most of the my clients are middle class. They would rather get a good paint job for a good price, than an amazing paint job at an outrageous price. You gotta give people what they want, and adapt accordingly. I sure as hell wouldnt pay an extra thousand bucks to make my walls look slightly better than if they used a regular primer. I'll make my work look badass without using the most expensive products, and thats what most customers want.

Also, its nasty stuff to spray.
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Old 09-29-2017, 02:53 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by paint life View Post
Coronado Supercoat 5000 Drywall primer is the best Drywall Primer I have ever used. I can apply it by just spraying or spraying and back rolling or brush and roller. One coat and everything is completely covered and sealed evenly and has great hold out for the top coat. I have even had customers on new construction jobs insist that their garage was finished with one coat of primer, most of them agree to let me put paint on it, but I have had some who like the look of it so much they insist I leave it as a finish coat.
Thank you paint life for that info about Coronado 5000 primer.

Couple of weeks ago I was told by the B/M store manager that C-Supercoat 5000 is a very good primer/sealer especially for it's price 40 to 50% less than the price of the FreshStart.
I'm going to give a try for sure now.
I'm going to do tape adhesion test over DustControl compound since I use this drywall compound almost exclusively (98% of the time) on all of the drywall repairs I do.

After finding out that GARDZ is not adhering to the DustControl compound due to the paraffin wax added to it (to make it heavy so it falls fast instead of floating in the air like regular drywall compound doe's), I'm primarily concerned with the solid adhesion of the primer to the drywall compound.
Yes the build up is very important, but for me the adhesion is the priority, build up of the primer is secondary on the priority list.

One thing about GARDZ I like is the fact that is slows down significantly the absorption process of the top coat paint, especially in a hot weather, so you have more open time to cut or to roll, especially BenjMoore paints that for a very strange reason are very thick and gluey and dry super fast.
That's one of the reasons I stopped using B/M paints unless I'm doing colors change to dark colors, in that case I use AURA.

It was mentioned here before (and I noticed few times also that AURA or REGAL with Genex pigments in pastel colors have very weak 'hiding' powers but in dark colors Genex pigments are outstanding).
Actually old type of Universal pigments in pastel colors are outperforming Genex pigments so I stopped using B/M paints in pastel colors because of weak hiding properties and because B/M paints are so thick and gummy very "unpleasant" to work with especially in hot weather conditions.
I don't understand why B/M is making their paints so super thick and gummy and drying super fast.

For example DULUX paints that I started using lately are much more friendly to use. They might not have super high quality ingredients in them as B/M paints have but hiding powers of pastel colors are much better than pastels in B/M and price is like 50% less than B/M.
Tho the DIMOND line of Delux paints are very high quality paints.
Yes wall painted with B/M paint could be scrubbed 250 times in the laboratory conditions and the other paints could be scrubbed "only" 100 times, but who is scrubbing walls 100 times, or even 10 times.???

Last edited by XYZ; 09-29-2017 at 02:56 AM..
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Old 09-29-2017, 03:03 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Woodco View Post
We've already been through this. I believe the thread was several pages long. To sum it up: Ceiling flashed where I sprayed. After I realized that, I rolled another coat of gardz on all the walls to avoid future problems. Yes, its a good primer. I get it. I always use it to prime before wallpaper. I wont however, spray it as a primer in a whole house ever again, unless Im spec'c to backroll the primer. And why would anyone use a primer that you have to double coat before topcoating? I prime ONCE, and topcoat twice, unless I'm spec'd and GETTING PAID to do more, in which case, great.

The fact is, I get the same results with any other primer, or even using a flat wall paint as a primer. And, as I've just learned, leaving tape too long on the walls that have two coats of gardz and two topcoats, will still pull paint off the wall occasionally, so its not as bulletproof as it seems either.

Also, some of us dont get T+M to cut and roll two coats of expensive primer before topcoating. I have to give a price for a paint job, and it has to compete with several other companies, and I guarantee none of the other ones are putting two coats of high priced primer in their bids. Theres a delicate balance of quality and cost effectiveness that has to be considered, especially for people like me, who have only been on our own for a short time, and dont have an extensive client list and reputation. Most of the my clients are middle class. They would rather get a good paint job for a good price, than an amazing paint job at an outrageous price. You gotta give people what they want, and adapt accordingly. I sure as hell wouldnt pay an extra thousand bucks to make my walls look slightly better than if they used a regular primer. I'll make my work look badass without using the most expensive products, and thats what most customers want.

Also, its nasty stuff to spray.
Woodco, if you can please do a tape adhesion test and share your findings with flat pain as a first coat over the drywall compound, (paper sections of the drywall are not the issue) drywall compound and primer coat adhesion is, at least for me.
Thanks.
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Old 09-29-2017, 06:11 PM   #87
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Woodco, if you can please do a tape adhesion test and share your findings with flat pain as a first coat over the drywall compound, (paper sections of the drywall are not the issue) drywall compound and primer coat adhesion is, at least for me.
Thanks.
I cant do that. And even if I could, you have to give the paint three weeks for a full cure. Today though, I second coated the master bedroom walls, which are a very dark brown, so anything less than perfect cut in lines stick out big time, so I decided to tape and caulk the ceiling line to make it really nice. (I usually dont do that, but this color is super dark, and my first cut was less than perfect) . I pulled the tape right away, and it did take a few spots of the ceiling paint down with it, so its not bulletproof. I painted the ceiling over two months ago, and its primed with gardz. However, I dont know for sure if it took the gardz with it, or if the ceiling paint pulled off of the gardz, but Im guessing it took both off.

Without rereading the whole thread, how long are you giving the primer to cure before doing adhesion tests? Full cure takes up to three weeks.

Last edited by Woodco; 09-29-2017 at 06:16 PM..
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Old 09-29-2017, 11:35 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Woodco View Post
I cant do that. And even if I could, you have to give the paint three weeks for a full cure. Today though, I second coated the master bedroom walls, which are a very dark brown, so anything less than perfect cut in lines stick out big time, so I decided to tape and caulk the ceiling line to make it really nice. (I usually dont do that, but this color is super dark, and my first cut was less than perfect) . I pulled the tape right away, and it did take a few spots of the ceiling paint down with it, so its not bulletproof. I painted the ceiling over two months ago, and its primed with gardz. However, I dont know for sure if it took the gardz with it, or if the ceiling paint pulled off of the gardz, but Im guessing it took both off.

Without rereading the whole thread, how long are you giving the primer to cure before doing adhesion tests? Full cure takes up to three weeks.
The tests I did described in the thread I started "GARDZ-problems adhering to drywall mud." https://www.painttalk.com/f2/gardz-pr...all-mud-82049/
was after 24 hours, you know typical time laps.
Very seldom I paint over primer/sealer after 4 to 6 hours, very small patches, otherwise I like to be on the safe side and do it next day.
One of the primers performed very well,three others did not.

I personally don't like the idea using flat paint as a first prime coat.
I don't think it's a good practice but I know it's requested by GC and is done daily.
Maybe some flat paints from some brands would bond as well as dedicated primer/sealer.

Would be great if other painters did green painters tape adhesion tests using flat paint over drywall compounds (providing info about flat paint that was used and if they know over what type of drywall compound was applied) let the flat paint dry for 24 hours and next day leaving tape for 10 minutes and for 30 minutes and share with us the results.

Last edited by XYZ; 09-29-2017 at 11:38 PM..
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Old 09-30-2017, 07:11 PM   #89
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You cant judge a paints adhesion until its fully cured. Latex take up to three weeks to fully cure. Most will cure far before then , especially on drywall, but you need to wait longer to to do a proper tape test. Maybe in a week, that gardz will pass with flying colors.
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Old 09-30-2017, 10:13 PM   #90
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You cant judge a paints adhesion until its fully cured. Latex take up to three weeks to fully cure. Most will cure far before then , especially on drywall, but you need to wait longer to to do a proper tape test. Maybe in a week, that gardz will pass with flying colors.
Just to be on the same page, I'm talking about adhesion of primers/sealers on various bare drywall compounds.
And I highly doubt that flat paint will have same grip strength adhesion as dedicated primer/sealer.
Maybe some brands will, that's why I'm asking if most of the painters know this fact from in field tests after 24 hours of primer application drying time.

If Dulux X-pro performed 100% successfully green tape adhesion test over Dust Control drywall compound this is for me so called "golden standard" now.
Maybe other primers/sealers will fail after 24 hours initially, but after 24 hours after they are top coated with two coats of top coat paint, maybe those primers/sealers will adhere to the DustControl (or Regular) drywall compound and stay on it solid so when you put a tape on them year or more after that the primer/sealer will hold that paint in place very solid, or maybe it will be coming off like sunburned skin.


Do you know that for sure 100%, or is just a wild guess about gardz.?
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Old 09-30-2017, 10:35 PM   #91
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I know for a fact that gardz fails tape tests occasionally, even a few months old.
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Old 10-01-2017, 08:27 AM   #92
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That's only your opinion!


Ya that's my opinion. It says right in the label it dries with a residual tack. So I'm sure hag your speaking of staying gummy was the product acting as designed. It's a great product seeing as though I don't have access to guardz around me


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Old 10-01-2017, 03:58 PM   #93
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All the downstairs walls of my big custom are still coated with Gardz. It never got tacky.
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Old 10-11-2017, 11:24 AM   #94
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Thank you paint life for that info about Coronado 5000 primer.

Couple of weeks ago I was told by the B/M store manager that C-Supercoat 5000 is a very good primer/sealer especially for it's price 40 to 50% less than the price of the FreshStart.
I'm going to give a try for sure now.
I'm going to do tape adhesion test over DustControl compound since I use this drywall compound almost exclusively (98% of the time) on all of the drywall repairs I do.

After finding out that GARDZ is not adhering to the DustControl compound due to the paraffin wax added to it (to make it heavy so it falls fast instead of floating in the air like regular drywall compound doe's), I'm primarily concerned with the solid adhesion of the primer to the drywall compound.
Yes the build up is very important, but for me the adhesion is the priority, build up of the primer is secondary on the priority list.

One thing about GARDZ I like is the fact that is slows down significantly the absorption process of the top coat paint, especially in a hot weather, so you have more open time to cut or to roll, especially BenjMoore paints that for a very strange reason are very thick and gluey and dry super fast.
That's one of the reasons I stopped using B/M paints unless I'm doing colors change to dark colors, in that case I use AURA.

It was mentioned here before (and I noticed few times also that AURA or REGAL with Genex pigments in pastel colors have very weak 'hiding' powers but in dark colors Genex pigments are outstanding).
Actually old type of Universal pigments in pastel colors are outperforming Genex pigments so I stopped using B/M paints in pastel colors because of weak hiding properties and because B/M paints are so thick and gummy very "unpleasant" to work with especially in hot weather conditions.
I don't understand why B/M is making their paints so super thick and gummy and drying super fast.

For example DULUX paints that I started using lately are much more friendly to use. They might not have super high quality ingredients in them as B/M paints have but hiding powers of pastel colors are much better than pastels in B/M and price is like 50% less than B/M.
Tho the DIMOND line of Delux paints are very high quality paints.
Yes wall painted with B/M paint could be scrubbed 250 times in the laboratory conditions and the other paints could be scrubbed "only" 100 times, but who is scrubbing walls 100 times, or even 10 times.???
The SK5000 primer is a PVA not at all comparable to the freshstart primers. Try the SureSeal 027 (100% acrylic) Primer. More % Solids than the SK5000 primer and even a little cheaper. Excellent workhorse primer IMO. Good adhesion, mildew resistant, some stain blocking ability..

Last edited by cocomonkeynuts; 10-11-2017 at 12:48 PM..
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