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Old 07-02-2017, 06:34 PM   #61
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That was funny, Brushman4! He likes to use it because he does tons of skim coating with Easy Sand 20 on every job and wants something easier to sand for the final coat. The yellow stuff is what he has settled on. He says it also helps him see where he has spackled the final coat.

He has been doing this type of work for 17 years at the twin condo buildings he works exclusively at and feels like he knows best. It was like pulling teeth to get him to switch from Kilz 2 to 123.

Having said that, he does do very good work. I don't want to push him too hard. I will just try to sneak on a coat of Gardz over the yellow chit after he leaves at 5 and I stay til 7.

futtyos
The yellow mud is real easy to apply and sand maybe to easy as evidenced by the mounds of dust it leaves after sanding. We know how soft it is but it gets even softer when tapers mix way too much water into, to make it easier to apply with their Ames tools. https://www.amestools.com/
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Old 07-02-2017, 06:55 PM   #62
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Is the yellow mud you're referring to, topping compound?
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Old 07-02-2017, 07:22 PM   #63
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Is the yellow mud you're referring to, topping compound?
This stuff: http://www.homedepot.com/p/SHEETROCK...5064/202329668

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Old 07-02-2017, 07:42 PM   #64
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From the Plus 3 TDS


Drywall Primer: A priming material applied over the entire prepared gypsum panel surface prior to decoration. The priming material must be suitable for the substrate and applied as recommended by the coating manufacturer. Where final appearance is critical, the application of a flat drywall primer with high pigment solids tends to minimize most decorating problems.

A prime coat of USG Sheetrock Brand First CoatTM Primer or a good quality interior latex flat wall paint with a high pigment solids content should be applied undiluted and allowed to dry before decoration. Walls to be covered with wallpaper or vinyl wallcovering should have the surface treated per the wallcovering manufacturer’s recommendation.

Last edited by CApainter; 07-02-2017 at 07:52 PM.. Reason: Interesting that the copy paste excluded "flat". Had to re enter it.
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Old 07-03-2017, 12:36 AM   #65
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Default Directions or advice?

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Originally Posted by CApainter View Post
From the Plus 3 TDS


Drywall Primer: A priming material applied over the entire prepared gypsum panel surface prior to decoration. The priming material must be suitable for the substrate and applied as recommended by the coating manufacturer. Where final appearance is critical, the application of a flat drywall primer with high pigment solids tends to minimize most decorating problems.

A prime coat of USG Sheetrock Brand First CoatTM Primer or a good quality interior latex flat wall paint with a high pigment solids content should be applied undiluted and allowed to dry before decoration. Walls to be covered with wallpaper or vinyl wallcovering should have the surface treated per the wallcovering manufacturers recommendation.
It appears that the quotes above can be found in this link:

https://www.usg.com/content/dam/USG_...ttal-J498A.pdf

Here is the Gardz TDS: https://www.rustoleum.com/~/media/Di...ealer_TDS.ashx

It would appear from the following from the Gardz TDS that Gardz is suitable for the substrate applied as recommended by Zinsser:

NEW DRYWALL/JOINT COMPOUND AND SPACKLING
GARDZ penetrates and uniformly seals, creating a
moisture resistant film that protects drywall from blistering,
tearing and other damage when re-decorating in the
future.

The 3rd sentence in the first paragraph of you above post ("Where final appearance is critical, the application of a flat drywall primer with high pigment solids tends to minimize most decorating problems.") appears to be advice rather than strictly direction. I have repeatedly found that applying Gardz as directed gives me a surface superior to any primer I have used for getting an even topcoat of paint, even for flat paint.

You do make a point as regards getting a super flat finish in your post #57 where you say "For example, if a decorator is looking for the least amount of sheen from a flat paint as possible, the last thing you want to do is apply a high resin primer." While I have always been able to get a uniform finish and sheen with flat paint over Gardz, I have not run into the situation you mention regarding a decorator wanting as little sheen from a flat paint as possible, I will have to keep that in mind if it comes up. I realize that you do far more work than I do and far more work with decorators as well and I appreciate that heads up.

All that being said, I do not find anything in the USG Plus3 TDS that isn't covered by or is incompatible with what is said in the Gardz TDS regarding Gardz' application over bare drywall and joint compounds of any type. In addition, USG Plus3 joint compound is extremely soft (I can sand it with my hand) and I highly doubt that any drywall primer or paint is going to soak into the compound and harden like Gardz or a similar product (Draw-Tite comes to mind) in a manner which helps minimize accidental dings and dents.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, the GC I paint condos for likes to use USG Plus 3 Tinted for his last coat of mud over a skim coat of Easy Sand 20 and just wants me to prime with Zinsser 123 (I convinced him to switch to that from Kilz2) so he can go around with a light and catch all the mistakes he missed, which are then hit with another coat of 123, then painted. I try to Gardz the Plus3 first if I can, but he finished a bathroom with Plus3, then primed it himself with 123. I painted over this about a week or 2 later with BM Regal Select white. Over a month later, I was painting a built-in medicine cabinet. I started to put yellow Freg tape on the wall next to the cabinet. I mispositioned the tape and when I pulled off a 5" section, it took the paint and primer down to the Plus3. That is not what I would call a good thing.

A week ago I finished painting a nasty bathroom at an auto body shop. I had put 3 coats of Gardz on most of the areas I had spackled and 4 on one whole wall I had torn all the top layer of plaster off of and remudded with Durabond and Easy Sand, then 2 coats of semi-gloss over that. I was on the phone today with the friend who got me to do this bathroom and he was at the shop. I asked him to get some real sticky tape and see if he could pull any paint off after being there for a week. He is an HVAC contractor, so he got some Polyken 339 duct tape and stuck it on an area where a new vanity will be going. Nothing came off.

I looked up your post on tape tests and realized that I will need to go back and try the tape test you mentioned here a few years ago ( http://events.nace.org/education/ins...ng_04/Tale.asp ) and see how it works doing that.

One last question: have you ever painted NC over new drywall and joint compound sealed with gardz as directed by the TDS, and if so, did you roll or spray and how did the finished product turn out?

I am not trying to be a jerk about Gardz. I just would find it interesting if those here who do try it do so according to the directions on the TDS. If it doesn't work, fine, but if it is not applied correctly, I do feel free to point out that this or that person who used it might try it again doing it according to the TDS.

I am coming to the conclusion that parallel universes might be existing all around us and that while we may be able to discuss things in common, our own individual experiences with these produts and processes might be being had in different, but parallel situations. I read all kinds of bad stuff here about Behr paint and I just can't relate to most of it because my experience is mostly good using Behr. In fact, I would have to think hard to remember when Behr didn't work well for me. I like doing repair/repaint jobs where i use the Paint people already have for touching up because i get to try out paint I normally would not think of using.

I have to go now, they are locking me in my room for the night.

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Old 07-03-2017, 01:11 AM   #66
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futtyos,

I was just referring to the primer recommendation over the Plus 3. As far as using Gardz as a new drywall primer, yes. And it worked excellent as a base for the Regal Pearl finish.

Last edited by CApainter; 07-03-2017 at 01:15 AM..
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Old 07-03-2017, 01:42 AM   #67
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Default Plus 3, not for me

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futtyos,

I was just referring to the primer recommendation over the Plus 3. As far as using Gardz as a new drywall primer, yes. And it worked excellent as a base for the Regal Pearl finish.
I am not as familiar as probably most here are with the various types of joint compounds and such. I hate the Plus 3, but that is what the boss uses. I like a nice solid surface, at least for walls.

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Old 07-03-2017, 02:16 AM   #68
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Is the yellow mud you're referring to, topping compound?
Yes, but the problems lies in the fact that many tapers, piss the 5hit out of it with water, way beyond what USG recommends, only to make it easier to move through their equipment.
That's why in many high-rises you'll see cracks in seams. Some tapers even go to the extreme to use topping to embed the tape, which is a big no-no, because it lacks the adhesive properties of regular joint compound!
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Old 07-03-2017, 09:27 AM   #69
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Yes, but the problems lies in the fact that many tapers, piss the 5hit out of it with water, way beyond what USG recommends, only to make it easier to move through their equipment.
That's why in many high-rises you'll see cracks in seams. Some tapers even go to the extreme to use topping to embed the tape, which is a big no-no, because it lacks the adhesive properties of regular joint compound!
Apparently, the USG Plus 3 yellow mud futtyo's boss is using, can also be applied to embed tape as well as a topping. I've never used it before, but I agree with you that topping is not intended for embedding tape.
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Old 07-03-2017, 10:53 AM   #70
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Default Embedding tape

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Apparently, the USG Plus 3 yellow mud futtyo's boss is using, can also be applied to embed tape as well as a topping. I've never used it before, but I agree with you that topping is not intended for embedding tape.
My boss uses Easy Sand 20 to embed tape and for all coats except the last, which he uses Plus 3 for. I try to use Durabond when I embed tape. While doing bunches of skim coating at the condos I paint for this GC, I have had the opportunity to drop globs of both Easy Sand and Durabond onto the concrete floor (before the new floor is installed). After hardening, the Easy Sand comes up pretty easily with a putty knife. The Durabond needs a hammer and chisel combo. I guess that is why they called it Durabond!

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Old 07-03-2017, 11:02 AM   #71
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My boss uses Easy Sand 20 to embed tape and for all coats except the last, which he uses Plus 3 for. I try to use Durabond when I embed tape. While doing bunches of skim coating at the condos I paint for this GC, I have had the opportunity to drop globs of both Easy Sand and Durabond onto the concrete floor (before the new floor is installed). After hardening, the Easy Sand comes up pretty easily with a putty knife. The Durabond needs a hammer and chisel combo. I guess that is why they called it Durabond!

futtyos
I like your idea of hardening the surface of the weak Plus 3 finish with the Gardz. I would probably do the same thing.

If it fit into the budget, and I was applying anything that will have a shiny finish, I would definitely consider Gardz. However, I would never apply it beyond it's recommended WFT. And I would likely continue to roll it on, or at least back roll if I used an airless cautiously.

The TDS recommends 1 mil DFT. Not a very thick film, however, it does say you can coat over

Last edited by CApainter; 07-03-2017 at 11:09 AM..
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Old 07-03-2017, 02:30 PM   #72
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Default TDS and real world applications

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I like your idea of hardening the surface of the weak Plus 3 finish with the Gardz. I would probably do the same thing.

If it fit into the budget, and I was applying anything that will have a shiny finish, I would definitely consider Gardz. However, I would never apply it beyond it's recommended WFT. And I would likely continue to roll it on, or at least back roll if I used an airless cautiously.

The TDS recommends 1 mil DFT. Not a very thick film, however, it does say you can coat over
CApainter, you do seem to like to go by the book and I appreciate your bringing technical details into the discussion. I am not quite sure how paint companies arrive at the specs that they do, but I do know how I end up using the product. Here is the TDS for Gardz if anyone wants to refer to it:

https://www.rustoleum.com/~/media/Di...ealer_TDS.ashx

When I roll oput a first coat of Gardz, I let the surface I am rolling it on dictate how much to apply. On the first large skim coated over textured ceiling I did (24 x 15) I started out with a 3/8" nap roller cover. Seeing how the material was being sucked up like water on a wet sponge in the desert, I looked aournd and found a 3/4" nap roller and switched to that, applying as much Gardz as I could until I could "feel" that I could not get any more to penetrate without it starting to become messy. The 2nd coat over this went at least twice as fast and used probably half or less the amount of material usede on the first coat. The 508 I put on top of the Gardz came out perfect. As far as 1 mil DFT, that is what is recommended per coat. Since I usually do a slightly lighter 2nd coat, I would guess I am getting somewhere less than 2 mils DFT as I really don't find it easy to apply as much material as in the first coat.

As far as using Gardz under flat, I had a long wall to paint in the first condo I did for the GC I have mentioned. I primed and painted it as per his direction 2 or 3 times, each time with the GC finding mistakes to correct. He got frustrated with my not being able to get an even coat with the Behr PP that he normally uses on his jobs. It was Friday. I told him I would take care of it over the weekend.

After he left, I rolled out 2 coats of Gardz and went home. Came back the next day and rolled out 2 coats of the flat. It came out perfect. This was a wall that went from a doorway next to floor to ceiling windows in about 15 feet to a bathroom doorway with a pocket door that slid away from the wall I have described. When you stand inside the bathroom and look out, you are standing right next to the wall. When the sun is shining into the windows, you have the worst light for showing imperfections. On Monday, the only complaint the GC had was with his own repairs before I took over. Otherwise, he was very happy with the uniformity of the sheen. All that being said, I only applied Gardz to that one wall in that bedroom. None of the other walls got any light that would let you easily see any imperfections, so those only got 123 and then paint and they looked fine.

Mind you, this was using Behr Premium Plus flat. This flat does have a slight sheen to it that probably is accentuated by going over the Gardz. I have a feeling that most flat paints today have more sheen to them than the flat paints of years ago. If I do end up getting a request for a dead flat finish, I will have to take into consideration whether to use Gardz underneath or something else. What primer would you recommend for under a dead flat? The 123 dries almost to a satin finish.

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Old 07-03-2017, 03:33 PM   #73
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Default Draw-Tite demonstration

Since we are on the subject of Gardz/clear sealers, I thought I might share this 4-video playlist of a Draw-Tite demonstration from 2014. Scotch Paints make a white pigmented sealer in addition to its clear, but the gentleman doing the demonstration seemed to feel that the clear sealed better than the white:


I was hoping that the white would work as well because it is really nice to seal drywall, but it is really nice to get a coat of white on as well so you can point up easier using a bright light to find the mistakes. Perhaps the white Draw-Tite would be good enough for my purposes. I just don't like having stuff shipped, I'd rather go to the store and buy stuff in person, but I may try this white version of Draw-Tite and see how well it works for the above purposes.

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Old 07-10-2017, 03:24 PM   #74
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Default Paint coming off on roller cover

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Do you mean it's better because it creates uniform porosity by being uniformly porous (like many drywall primers) instead of creating a uniformly sealed surface?

I think I get what your saying. Go into a fairly new house and paint over some builders flat. It's chalky as hell and soaks the moisture out of your material almost instantly. That might not be a bad thing if your going for the flattest of the flat. Sheen hold out is virtually nonexistent so your flat paint is at max flatness.


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Jmayspaint, I was looking for a comment about the sandability of Gardz and saw your post about builders flat. Have you ever started to roll new paint over a cheap builders paint and find that the builders paint begins to come off onto the roller cover after it has become wet from the new paint? That is another reason to use Gardz when going over a questionable surface. Gardz can soak into the old paint and help glue it to the substraight so that the new paint does not pull the old paint off.

Gardz can also go through cheap primer. I had several new preprimed doors to paint and thought I would try putting on some Gardz first. Normally, when applying Gardz to a porous surface, the area where the clear Gardz goes on will appear darker, just like water will darken an area that is porous. If Gardz is applied to a sealed surface, there usually will be no color change. When I rolled Gardz onto the preprimed doors, it soaked right through the primer and darkened the surface. I suppose some primers might also penetrate the old primer, but I would not be able to tell by seeing it darken the surface like Gardz because Gardz is clear.

Just some observations.

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Old 07-10-2017, 03:46 PM   #75
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... If I do end up getting a request for a dead flat finish, I will have to take into consideration whether to use Gardz underneath or something else. What primer would you recommend for under a dead flat? The 123 dries almost to a satin finish.

futtyos
Sorry for the late response. I thought I had sent a reply some time ago. Apparently it didn't go through.

I still like PVA sealer. It doesn't have much of a sheen at all. But most flats these days are self priming. If I wanted a very good sealer and undercoater for the flat, and it was in the budget, I like the Zinsser Drywall Primer.
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Old 12-26-2019, 01:25 PM   #76
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I realize this is an old thread. I’m a big fan of Gardz. Also tried the Draw Tite clear but not the Draw Tite White. I have a large house with several skim coats over flat paint/texture. This was applied years ago by a drywall crew that applied various mud brands, various thicknesses and some patching that dried very hard. They pretty much ruined my house. Then I hired another guy who said he could fix it and proceeded to sand with 150 grit sandpaper and just made the damage worse! To fix the issues now is almost impossible, Skim coating the problem areas will only show as patches...it’s very hard to feather out edges of patches on chalky already applied skim coats. I want to seal up the whole house with Gardz (probably two coats). But then I’m interested in applying a high build drywall primer like Freeman 555 or Sherwin Williams High Build. These primers can level out some imperfections and of course will dry white and perhaps give us a good starting point for patching. Then a second coat of the white high build can be applied. My concern is adhesion to the Guardz. Yes I’ve asked the manufacturers. No one really knows for certain. I know I can experiment with a wall and perhaps do a tape test but I really don’t want to wait weeks or months to see if this primer falls off the Gardz. Gardz is pretty slick. I know regular printer and paint will stick. Has anyone applied a high build primer such as SW, Freeman 555 or even USG’s First Coat over Gardz or even Draw Tite?
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Old 12-26-2019, 09:08 PM   #77
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I realize this is an old thread. I’m a big fan of Gardz. Also tried the Draw Tite clear but not the Draw Tite White. I have a large house with several skim coats over flat paint/texture. This was applied years ago by a drywall crew that applied various mud brands, various thicknesses and some patching that dried very hard. They pretty much ruined my house. Then I hired another guy who said he could fix it and proceeded to sand with 150 grit sandpaper and just made the damage worse! To fix the issues now is almost impossible, Skim coating the problem areas will only show as patches...it’s very hard to feather out edges of patches on chalky already applied skim coats. I want to seal up the whole house with Gardz (probably two coats). But then I’m interested in applying a high build drywall primer like Freeman 555 or Sherwin Williams High Build. These primers can level out some imperfections and of course will dry white and perhaps give us a good starting point for patching. Then a second coat of the white high build can be applied. My concern is adhesion to the Guardz. Yes I’ve asked the manufacturers. No one really knows for certain. I know I can experiment with a wall and perhaps do a tape test but I really don’t want to wait weeks or months to see if this primer falls off the Gardz. Gardz is pretty slick. I know regular printer and paint will stick. Has anyone applied a high build primer such as SW, Freeman 555 or even USG’s First Coat over Gardz or even Draw Tite?
Liz2122, welcome to Paint Talk. Please forgive me, but even though you have mentioned several paint trade products and applications, you sound like you might not be a painter or be involved in a paint related trade as is required for admission into this group. You might find your self being redirected by the moderators to the sister site DIY Chatroom for further help.

Until that happens, I must say that I am somewhat confused as to exactly what your problem is and what you are wanting to do to correct it. Rather than ask you a bunch of questions, can you post some photos of what you are talking about? Also, you have some "unintelligeably" spelled words in your post. Can you make sure that if you post anything further here in Paint Talk or DIY Chatroom that you first Preview your post to make sure that it is understandable?

Thanks,

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Old 12-26-2019, 10:18 PM   #78
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Liz2122, welcome to Paint Talk. Please forgive me, but even though you have mentioned several paint trade products and applications, you sound like you might not be a painter or be involved in a paint related trade as is required for admission into this group. You might find your self being redirected by the moderators to the sister site DIY Chatroom for further help.

Thanks,
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We shouldn't be encouraging the DIYers here. They might send their friends along.
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Old 12-26-2019, 11:34 PM   #79
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Gotcha. Not sure why all of the typos in my post -- they weren't there when I hit "send". No, not a professional painter, but I sure have educated my community of painters and drywallers about the benefits of Gardz. (I've been remodeling this house for several years.) They had no knowledge of its benefits. I'll head over to the DIY for a new post with photos of drywall issues and more details. Thank you.
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Old 12-27-2019, 02:07 AM   #80
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Theres absolutely no reason to do 2 coats of Gardz, FYI.
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