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Old 04-11-2019, 11:11 PM   #1
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Default Water-based bonding primers

I read through a lot of threads, but still looking for more opinions. I will be changing over stained trim to paint in an entire home. What I would like to do is least amount of sanding (who doesn't). I normally would sand, use oil primer, sand, paint with oil. I am skipping the oil and want to change to Latex finish as oil is fading away around here. Oil primer is my go too, but I'm curious if anyone has had good results with a wb bonding primer? I did a test run on some base and a couple window sills using oil-based cover stain after sanding down the clear. . After 24 hrs of cure time I attempted to sand but not thrilled with the adhesion. Never had this issue with oil after sanding first. I know water-based has come a long way. I have few options close by...Ace Hardware with hardly any BM material, SW and Lowes (can not stand Valspar). Anyone have good experience with wb bonding primer over varnished trim with or without sanding?
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:20 PM   #2
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My go-to WB Primer is Bullseye 123.
Levels nicely, has good adhesion, and dries to re-paint in less than an hour.
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:35 PM   #3
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I like 123 and sherwin extreme bond is good. Bullseye is a shellac product from zinnser and not waterbase.
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:38 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmp View Post
I like 123 and sherwin extreme bond is good. Bullseye is a shellac product from zinnser and not waterbase.
BIN is the shellac primer from Zinser.
Bullseye123 is the WB.
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:40 PM   #5
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I painted the stained and polyed trim in the kitchen of one of my rental homes a little over a year ago with Emerald trim Gloss hi hide white. No primer was used. Prep was with Dawn with a green scrub pad. I did scuff sand with some 220 any rough areas. I had
4 windows which were weathered pretty bad from moisture and sunshine. Brushed two coats. No problems with adherence. Coverage was decent. I was in the house 4 months later and there weren't any issues. I expect to be back in a couple months to check condition again.
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:41 PM   #6
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123 is just a mediocre primer at best, its meant to be a 'do it all' price point product.



Just be aware the bonding primers like Stix or UMA have zero stain blocking ability.
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Old 04-12-2019, 06:09 AM   #7
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My go to for wb primer is INSX Stix. It certainly does stick to anything. Blows bullseye 123 away IMO.
If you can't get that, I would go to a shellac, like BIN. You can get that at all the harware stores.
It's alcohol based, so got a little stink on it, but not bad. For arguments sake, the WB primers have quite a smell on them too.

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Old 04-12-2019, 08:08 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cocomonkeynuts View Post
123 is just a mediocre primer at best, its meant to be a 'do it all' price point product.
"mediocre" why/how? Compared to what?
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Old 04-12-2019, 08:12 AM   #9
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Quote:
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My go to for wb primer is INSX Stix. It certainly does stick to anything. Blows bullseye 123 away IMO.
If you can't get that, I would go to a shellac, like BIN. You can get that at all the harware stores.
It's alcohol based, so got a little stink on it, but not bad. For arguments sake, the WB primers have quite a smell on them too.

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Gotta say, there is no comparison regarding stink from BIN to say, 123. BIN will stink up a whole house in short order, whereas 123 is not nearly as noticeable.

I do not have access to anything but Zinnser or SW, and have had bad luck with all of the SW primers I have tried. Why is STIX so much better than 123. I don't think 123 is a bad primer.
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Old 04-12-2019, 08:43 AM   #10
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STIX, or XIM UMA for max adhesion. They have no stain blocking power however. 123, problock, seal grip, etc, are pretty good, and they do stainblock to an extent, but they are iffy on adhesion. That said, they USUALLY work fine, but not always.
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Old 04-12-2019, 05:41 PM   #11
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Sw multi purpose does bond very well and blocks a good amount of stains. Depends on the species of wood and the age of the wood. I would at least wipe it all down with a deglosser if your going to skip sanding.


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Old 04-12-2019, 06:29 PM   #12
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I like SW multi-purpose and have recently experimented with Zinsser's BONDZ. I was pretty impressed. I used the BONDZ on old varnished trim (after sanding) and it bonded very nicely so I may used it again. I also bought a quart of GRIPPER to see how it does. I believe it's a PPG product. Fixall (not sure of the parent company) also makes a nice bonding primer.
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Old 04-12-2019, 06:52 PM   #13
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Quote:
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I like SW multi-purpose and have recently experimented with Zinsser's BONDZ. I was pretty impressed. I used the BONDZ on old varnished trim (after sanding) and it bonded very nicely so I may used it again. I also bought a quart of GRIPPER to see how it does. I believe it's a PPG product. Fixall (not sure of the parent company) also makes a nice bonding primer.
I recently used Gripper primer on some Oak Cabinets and it failed. I've used Gripper for years without a problem but never on cabinets.

First I primed all the cabinets boxes and drawers at the job-site and then painted with 2 coats of Advance. The homeowner drilled some new holes for the handles and it came off in sheets after it had cured 30 days. I did everything right with prep so I was very surprised that it didn't stick very well.

I had some adhesion issues early on with the drawer faces and just re-primed it with gripper. I could have peeled all the primer off but I thought that might have been a curing issue. That worried me enough to spray all the doors with BIN primer.

Never again will I use Gripper or any WB primer for cabinets. Why take the chance? I shouldn't have listened to my paint rep who recommended the Gripper primer. Years ago i used Stix on some old kitchen cabinets and had to touch them up a few times because of chipping. I top coated them with cabinet coat.
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Old 04-12-2019, 07:28 PM   #14
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Quote:
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I recently used Gripper primer on some Oak Cabinets and it failed. I've used Gripper for years without a problem but never on cabinets.

First I primed all the cabinets boxes and drawers at the job-site and then painted with 2 coats of Advance. The homeowner drilled some new holes for the handles and it came off in sheets after it had cured 30 days. I did everything right with prep so I was very surprised that it didn't stick very well.

I had some adhesion issues early on with the drawer faces and just re-primed it with gripper. I could have peeled all the primer off but I thought that might have been a curing issue. That worried me enough to spray all the doors with BIN primer.

Never again will I use Gripper or any WB primer for cabinets. Why take the chance? I shouldn't have listened to my paint rep who recommended the Gripper primer. Years ago i used Stix on some old kitchen cabinets and had to touch them up a few times because of chipping. I top coated them with cabinet coat.
Yeah I don't play when it comes to priming cabinets. It sucks to spray BIN but it's even worse when a primer fails.

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Old 04-12-2019, 08:23 PM   #15
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Gotta say, there is no comparison regarding stink from BIN to say, 123. BIN will stink up a whole house in short order, whereas 123 is not nearly as noticeable.



I do not have access to anything but Zinnser or SW, and have had bad luck with all of the SW primers I have tried. Why is STIX so much better than 123. I don't think 123 is a bad primer.
When it comes to bonding, Stix is just a better product. Can't tell you why. It's just my experience. I can trust it and I don't like surprises.. But yes it doesn't have the stain blocking power of other primers..And ya BIN is a bit stinky, but depends how much area you are doing. Crack a couple windows and the smell disapates pretty quick..

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Old 04-12-2019, 11:17 PM   #16
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Horror stories like Mr Smithís is why I take no chances with my prep work if Iím concerned about adhesion. Iíd rather lose a little money spending more time prepping the surfaces than dealing with a full blown failure.

Like others Iíve also had the best luck with Stix.




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Old 04-12-2019, 11:49 PM   #17
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I heard great things about XIM UMA, unfortunately not available near me. I have no plans on skipping sanding as I know better. The prob is not sure if the trim was stained sealed and car dishes, but even after sanding well the test with cover stain failed. I can easily palm sand door they are cheap flat pine doors, basic windows w/ sills only so main concern is jambs and casings...so time consuming. No offense to those who use the 123 as I have had prior experience with and it's good for walls, spot priming etc., but I can't trust it over oil. Bin seems like its gonna be it for the availability I have. Ugh. It's not only the smell but also clean up. Might just do my own little experiment see what hold up best. I'd rather spend the money now then deal with massive failure later on.
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Old 04-13-2019, 08:17 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pintsizedpainter1 View Post
I heard great things about XIM UMA, unfortunately not available near me. I have no plans on skipping sanding as I know better. The prob is not sure if the trim was stained sealed and car dishes, but even after sanding well the test with cover stain failed. I can easily palm sand door they are cheap flat pine doors, basic windows w/ sills only so main concern is jambs and casings...so time consuming. No offense to those who use the 123 as I have had prior experience with and it's good for walls, spot priming etc., but I can't trust it over oil. Bin seems like its gonna be it for the availability I have. Ugh. It's not only the smell but also clean up. Might just do my own little experiment see what hold up best. I'd rather spend the money now then deal with massive failure later on.
Cover stain failed?? Wow.
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Old 04-13-2019, 08:33 AM   #19
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You mentioned you had acces to SW. SW makes a alcohol based shellac primer which I consider to be 100 percent interchangable with BIN. Anything less than $40 / gal is a good price now days. Be careful SW also has an artificial shellac and its right beside the real deal. They also have the rattle cans which are good for spot priming, small jobs, or for when you just don't want to clean up.
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Old 04-13-2019, 10:15 AM   #20
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Cover stain failed?? Wow.
Yup, sure did. Brand new gallon. Maybe I need to let rest in the van in the sun for a week 🤣 It was purchased from Lowe's not sure if it's the plant this batch came from but it failed. Also the SW close by only has the synthetic based shellac which is wb. They also don't have a clue about any of their own products, so I left.
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