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Old 05-02-2018, 01:22 PM   #21
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@RH - Focus and zoom in on flash. I have posted a few more. Backs were kinda rough and don't normally do a lot to fix this. However I have similar issue with minor orange peel on all vertical surfaces. The frames can be polished out but thats a little too much work. Thats the reason I just wet sand the fronts and do a horizontal float out.
Actually doesn't take much more time than a normal dry sand between coats. I use BIN as my primer.
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Old 05-03-2018, 04:37 PM   #22
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I think turbine hvlps and most waterborne products just is not a good fit. The heated dry air causes issues. Not saying it can't be done.

For a furniture maker a conventional compressor setup with a pneumatic pressure fed hvlp gun/conversion gun or setup with a pressure pot would be better than a turbine setup which is designed for convienient onsite finishing with it's portability.

I think a pneumatic aaa setup like a ca technologies or Kremlin setup would work out better. Especially if most of his work gets the same product sprayed on.

The turbine hvlp is good for stains and solvent borne coatings that can be thinned and retarded. I haven't shot any clear waterborne products with my turbine yet.

Definitely search. Lots and lots of these questions. I had many of the same myself .

I've found out through trial and error what alot of the more seasoned guys have been preaching. Trial and error will teach you very quickly.

Or buy the turbine hvlp and spend alot of time playing with reductions, application temperatures, heating your product above ambient, and searching and buyimg various products to try and find something that will give you the results you are looking for. Make and shoot a ton of samples.

I picked up an airless after struggling, and with a splash of extender or straight out of the can, you can lay down some real nice work with a x08 or x10 sized fine finish tips at low pressures (1000psi or less). With the aaa guns and flat fine finish tips it can be even nicer.
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Old 05-04-2018, 12:55 AM   #23
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Turbine HVLP's are not suited for most waterbourne products? If you are including waterbourne lacquers in that opinion I am obliged to disagree! I had some of those problems when spraying the 2010 formulation of Proclassic latex, but found them very manageable. When I tried waterbourne lacquers the problems you mentioned went away. I had some microbubbles from trying to lay it on too thick but thats about it. The OVERHEATING turbine can be controlled by turning the darn thing down. You don't need all that air for WB lacquers or BIN. I do have some minor orange peel on frames since they must be sprayed vertical. I am constantly looking to improve my process so I can be convinced. I would welcome some pics of frames or doors sprayed by airless vertically with waterbourne lacquer. A higher quality finish with affordable portable equipment will get my vote. IMHO turbine HVLP's are suitable for waterbourne lacquers pigmented or clear. Airless is best suited for waterbourne paint such as Breakthrough, Advance, Emerald, Proclassic and a myriad of others.

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Old 05-04-2018, 09:20 AM   #24
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That orange peel on the frames in those examples is not acceptable to me. I don't know if those were sprayed previously by someone else and that was just a scuff sand and recoat but if you can't spray vertically with the hvlp and waterborne lacquers then it's kinda useless for most of residential work. How do you spray casings or crown or baseboards? How would the orginal poster spray a piece of furniture that typically has a bunch of verticals?

Spraying doors vertically for cabinet jobs saves time and space.

I have never sprayed proclassic. I've had decent luck with breakthrough and cabinet coat thinned through hvlp but the sheen definitely gets knocked down and it needs thinning and extender. I can get it to lay down pretty well. My issue is the overspray is dry and dry sprays adjacent surfaces I just coated (say spraying a door jam).

Maybe I need a couple lessons from an experienced user to fix my spray order/technique. Airless and a ff has a much lower learning curve.
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Old 05-04-2018, 11:55 PM   #25
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Thank you for your critique of my work and the issues I am having with vertcal surfaces. I intentionally did the flash so I and anyone else could zoom in on it. Sort of like looking at the finished surface through a magnifying glass. I have not seen anyone post pics in this manner.
After all who wants their work examined with a magnifying glass. One of the ways I tell if my finish is smooth is I feel of it. Threesisters painting illuded to this in this thread. Attached below is the same area over the stove without the flash to see what you would normally see. You are correct there are "uncorrected" substrate issues in addition to orange peel on the frames. Initial sand was insufficient. I have HVLP sprayed BT and Emerald Trim with significant thinning with water. They flow out better on vertcal surfaces than WB lacquer but I have the same loss of sheen thay you described. I dont use wb lacquer on trim for repaints I use the new formula proclassic latex with brush and HVLP. To address the original posters inquiry we probably have given him enough information to get make his decision air line ess or hvlp. I on the otherhand am still waiting to see pictures of actual work so I can reasonably compare it to my work and alter my processes accordingly. I understand the reluctant nature of painters to put their work up for critique. Most times our customers are happy but we know where the the flaws are at. Its always a compromise to me as what is good enough. The customer it this case did not say it was good enough...he said he could believe how well they came out. So I got paid and he is happy but I am still trying to minimize that vertical orange peel.
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Old 05-05-2018, 12:59 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tprice2193 View Post
Thank you for your critique of my work and the issues I am having with vertcal surfaces. I intentionally did the flash so I and anyone else could zoom in on it. Sort of like looking at the finished surface through a magnifying glass. I have not seen anyone post pics in this manner.
After all who wants their work examined with a magnifying glass. One of the ways I tell if my finish is smooth is I feel of it. Threesisters painting illuded to this in this thread. Attached below is the same area over the stove without the flash to see what you would normally see. You are correct there are "uncorrected" substrate issues in addition to orange peel on the frames. Initial sand was insufficient. I have HVLP sprayed BT and Emerald Trim with significant thinning with water. They flow out better on vertcal surfaces than WB lacquer but I have the same loss of sheen thay you described. I dont use wb lacquer on trim for repaints I use the new formula proclassic latex with brush and HVLP. To address the original posters inquiry we probably have given him enough information to get make his decision air line ess or hvlp. I on the otherhand am still waiting to see pictures of actual work so I can reasonably compare it to my work and alter my processes accordingly. I understand the reluctant nature of painters to put their work up for critique. Most times our customers are happy but we know where the the flaws are at. Its always a compromise to me as what is good enough. The customer it this case did not say it was good enough...he said he could believe how well they came out. So I got paid and he is happy but I am still trying to minimize that vertical orange peel.
Maybe I missed it but what examples of spraying are you wanting to see? Quite a few of us have posted pics of our work in the past but maybe you are wanting to see something specific such as a certain process or particular product.
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Old 05-05-2018, 01:07 AM   #27
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For example, here is a shot of a door from a group of seven I did a few weeks ago. Graco 395 with 310fflp tip, shooting Proclassic water based satin.
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Old 05-05-2018, 02:17 AM   #28
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RH you have posted some nice pics. Not sure what it was you had painted but you had some closeups showing the grain in the oak. The issue at the time was whether to take the time filling the grain or save the time and go with a natural look. The pictures you posted convinced me to go with the hint of grain. A picture is worth a thousand words.
Specifically I am looking for a quality waterbourne finish on a vertical surface applied with an airless. I know what I can do with my turbine hvlp but I would like to do better without going solvent based. I have heard that higher quality finishes can be had with an airless in this situation. I am doubting this claim. If I saw pictures taken in a way that the viewer can see the good and the not so good. Then we have a chance for valid comparisons. Did you zoom in on
the flash area and were you able evaluate the finish good or bad? Did you think the door looks good but the frames need work? Did the flash photo technique help in the evaluation ? The variable is application eqipment.. turbine hvlp vs airless...the relative constants are surface prep, primer, waterboure lacquer, and vertical surfaces. Sorry for all the questions....Thanks for your efforts to get to the bottom of things. Oh before I forget...you suggested I whip my paint vs mixing it?
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Old 05-05-2018, 02:38 AM   #29
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RH regarding that pic of the door airless waterbased proclassic satin. Looks great! Was is sprayed vertical or horizontal? Looks dead smooth. Can you take a flash pic straight on about 18 inches away? I can definitely agree with proclassic via airless. I still use it but not for cabinets anymore
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Old 05-05-2018, 11:14 AM   #30
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Quote:
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RH regarding that pic of the door airless waterbased proclassic satin. Looks great! Was is sprayed vertical or horizontal? Looks dead smooth. Can you take a flash pic straight on about 18 inches away? I can definitely agree with proclassic via airless. I still use it but not for cabinets anymore
Those doors were sprayed while flat, something I always do unless itís a super heavy front door. I donít have the doors any long so canít take further pics. SWís satin tends to have less sheen than other brands so not much light was reflected back from them - but they did come out super smooth.

I personally think the straight on flash pic makes it a bit tougher to see what is going on. The best images that I have seen posted seem to be those where a bright light is shining across a surface towards the camera. With my door pic, I just used the overhead shop lights for illumination, although I did have a flash on the camera.

I am terrible about remembering to photograph my work but will go back and try to find and post a few other pics other than the ones with the oak graining you already saw.
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Old 05-05-2018, 12:12 PM   #31
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Thanks @RH for getting back with me...when you throw in special lighting you will get even less pictures. This is so easy... just walk up to the door and pop a flash pic. Helped me redefine the need for good prep. I have some ideas of how to fix the hvlp vertical orange peel with waterbourne lacquer, if its practical. I am going to try my airless again too. It may even be to time to go AAA. Pretty sure it would pay for itself pretty quickly. What is your experience with waterbourne lacquers? If so which products? Do you use your HVLP or airless to apply them?
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Old 05-05-2018, 01:07 PM   #32
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Thanks @RH for getting back with me...when you throw in special lighting you will get even less pictures. This is so easy... just walk up to the door and pop a flash pic. Helped me redefine the need for good prep. I have some ideas of how to fix the hvlp vertical orange peel with waterbourne lacquer, if its practical. I am going to try my airless again too. It may even be to time to go AAA. Pretty sure it would pay for itself pretty quickly. What is your experience with waterbourne lacquers? If so which products? Do you use your HVLP or airless to apply them?
Have not done any WBLs. Really should based on what others are sharing about it. But then, these days Iím tending to throw cabinet jobs to a painter buddy of mine.
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Old 05-05-2018, 02:10 PM   #33
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@Tprice2193

Here's a close up photo of a bathroom cabinet door. A fresh set I received from a kitchen company here--- bare wood- BIN- Breakthrough.
Breakthrough was shot through #4 tip capspray 115 just a dash of water.
Shot vertical.

I wouldn't use that system for higher production requirements though. I usually thin a little more if I want it that smooth and fast. The lower sheen isn't an issue.

Passes fingernail test. Good enough for me, and my customers, until it is a healthy life choice to spend on an AAA. Probably a few years down the road in my world.
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Old 05-06-2018, 11:59 AM   #34
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@Center_line_Painting - Thanks posting pics and sharing. Nice looking finish! Light at that angle and zooming in confirms. You have convinced me to go ahead and try this gallon I have had sitting around for a month. Probably will also try the Ultraplate that was previously suggested. One or the other or both will probably solve my vertical orange peel issue. Wonder what the gloss will look like? If it's semi-gloss it would be about right. Probably will show some imperfections Were you running turbine wide open?
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Old 05-06-2018, 02:15 PM   #35
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Just an FYI. I'm trying to be constructive, nothing personal regarding the examples you posted. Not every job can warrent the prep of an automotive smooth finish.

But rule of thumb for me is if you can see the orange peel in a small photo online, then itll definitely be prominent in real life.

Most of my own personal "orange peel" issues I struggle with is a molted look in the sheen of the surfaceb when looking at the specular reflection.

Ive come to accept it's the character of acrylic enamels. Even sample pieces shot horizontal and flooded on display it.

Don't get me wrong these surfaces feel smooth to the touch. They look smooth and it's something a typical person probably wouldn't notice.

My struggles have the paint looking like alot of oem finishes now on cars. Lots of molting and light orange peel in some factory paintjobs on cars. I probably attribute that to the cost of the additional labor to correct it and the fact they are shooting waterborne/based products too.

Again I didn't mean any harshness in my original comment. More so, If a product can only be shot horizontal, I was suggesting maybe find a different one with an easir workability.

Quote:
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Thank you for your critique of my work and the issues I am having with vertcal surfaces. I intentionally did the flash so I and anyone else could zoom in on it. Sort of like looking at the finished surface through a magnifying glass. I have not seen anyone post pics in this manner.
After all who wants their work examined with a magnifying glass. One of the ways I tell if my finish is smooth is I feel of it. Threesisters painting illuded to this in this thread. Attached below is the same area over the stove without the flash to see what you would normally see. You are correct there are "uncorrected" substrate issues in addition to orange peel on the frames. Initial sand was insufficient. I have HVLP sprayed BT and Emerald Trim with significant thinning with water. They flow out better on vertcal surfaces than WB lacquer but I have the same loss of sheen thay you described. I dont use wb lacquer on trim for repaints I use the new formula proclassic latex with brush and HVLP. To address the original posters inquiry we probably have given him enough information to get make his decision air line ess or hvlp. I on the otherhand am still waiting to see pictures of actual work so I can reasonably compare it to my work and alter my processes accordingly. I understand the reluctant nature of painters to put their work up for critique. Most times our customers are happy but we know where the the flaws are at. Its always a compromise to me as what is good enough. The customer it this case did not say it was good enough...he said he could believe how well they came out. So I got paid and he is happy but I am still trying to minimize that vertical orange peel.
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Old 05-06-2018, 07:58 PM   #36
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@Tprice2193 I'm unfamiliar with the term- "turbine wide open," but I'm guessing that means full blast. If so, yes.
I've been doing 6 stage with breakthrough, 4 stage with BIN.
I've actually never tried the gloss, save for brushing out some black once on a demo. It leveled better, smelled more, coverage was actually superb...about all i can say about it...shiny..

I'm happy with the satin results. Every customer has been too. Not to say "this is the best thing ever" but, totally suffices for making a living. I can sleep well.

I too will order some ultraplate, but that'll be in some months. I'm aiming to take a break from cabs and get some more fresh air.
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Old 05-06-2018, 08:05 PM   #37
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The orange peel could be your unit, perhaps...I remember you mentioning it was a graco.
idk how much power you have to play with.
A customer just managed to get me some KA+ (which I've been asking around for...for over a year now) I'll test it out this week or next maybe and see how things show up on some test doors.
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Old 05-06-2018, 11:34 PM   #38
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@Center_line_Painting - thanks for your insights. When you try the KA + you will probably get frustrated. Be patient and keep trying different things. I run it on stage 2 with a #3 tip same as I run BIN. It is very similar to the Enduro white poly. I have an old unit GRACO 4900 4 stage. I have updated the gun to a Graco Edge II Plus which pressure feeds instead of siphon feeds. When I spray Proclassic or Emerald I thin it and put flotrol in it. I use stage 4 and #4 needle. On vertical surfaces I have a finish almost as good as the door you posted but those two products take a while to cure so I went with the waterbourne lacquers. Bottom line there are frustrating tradeoffs between waterbourne lacquers and paint. Breakthrough and Ultraplate may have bridged some of these tradeoffs. Enjoy your outside work and let us know how you like the KA+.

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Old 05-07-2018, 12:09 AM   #39
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@sayn3ver - No offense taken. I appreciate everyone sharing their opinions and you were constructive in your analysis. You identified a poorly prepared substate right off the bat. I really don't know if an airless will lay on a waterboure lacquer on a vertical surface in a manner that either of us would be satisfied with. I have noticed some of your other posts and we maybe in a similar place with regard to quality. You are right about automotive finishes and orange peel. It is odd that auto finishes and application techniques are so similar to ours. Thanks again for your feedback. I have a feeling that these issues will remain controversial.

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