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Old 01-20-2020, 04:27 PM   #1
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Default ID cabinet coating

I'm still pretty new to the cabinet world. Anyone have an idea about this finish? It's in pretty bad shape, it looks like it has a film almost like a polyurethane. I'd like to use Stix for bonding but I keep having fish eye problems spraying that stuff , although I may back brush the primer due to the oak grains so its not out of the question. Otherwise i would probably go with smart Prime, as I've had good luck with that for a cabinet primer, plus it would cover any issues with tannin bleed as there is a bit of peeling/ exposed oak substrate. I know shellac is probably the best bet for tannins and adhesion, but I get nervous about spraying shellac in someone's house, still haven't used enough of it. As usual, thanks again to the Paint Talk community for any advice! Let's see if I can remember how to put a picture on here
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Old 01-20-2020, 04:33 PM   #2
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Well shoot I can't seem to figure out how to add a picture with my phone, so I'll have to do that tonight when I get home
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Old 01-20-2020, 05:25 PM   #3
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Does the stix fisheye over raw wood too? possibly surface contaminate? Can you PM me the batch #


PS. I have a friend from Bellingham, nice area out there.
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Old 01-21-2020, 07:08 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fromthenorthwest View Post
I'm still pretty new to the cabinet world. Anyone have an idea about this finish? It's in pretty bad shape, it looks like it has a film almost like a polyurethane. I'd like to use Stix for bonding but I keep having fish eye problems spraying that stuff , although I may back brush the primer due to the oak grains so its not out of the question. Otherwise i would probably go with smart Prime, as I've had good luck with that for a cabinet primer, plus it would cover any issues with tannin bleed as there is a bit of peeling/ exposed oak substrate. I know shellac is probably the best bet for tannins and adhesion, but I get nervous about spraying shellac in someone's house, still haven't used enough of it. As usual, thanks again to the Paint Talk community for any advice! Let's see if I can remember how to put a picture on here
Cleaning, sanding and dusting is the most important. If your not diligent with that, you will surely get fisheyes. I also find if your spraying the stix on too thick, that can happen. But ya, you will most likely have to back roll/brush the primer anyhow on the Oak to work into the grain.. either one of those primers will stick to whatever is on there, but any bare wood will burn throught the Stix unfortunately..and it will be noticeable. Option is to spot prime any bleading spots with the shellac afterwords..
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Old 01-25-2020, 08:32 PM   #5
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Stix, excellent adhesion, no stain blocking,
Smart prime, good adhesion, decent stain blocking.
Bin shellac primer, excellent adhesion, excellent stain blocking, easy to spray, odor dissipates in a short time.
Block off kitchen with plastic to the ceiling and a zipper door. Your customer will not miss a couple of days of smell and inconvenience. Your customer will be thankful for many years to come the quality of products you used.
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Old 01-25-2020, 08:46 PM   #6
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Oak cabinets, Bin shellac primer, sprayed and backbrushed into grain.
Two topcoats Ben Moore DTM Super Spec semi-gloss alkyd.
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ID cabinet coating-img_20190625_081536684_1580003001588.jpg  

ID cabinet coating-img_20190629_081705005_1580003033255.jpg  

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Old 01-26-2020, 12:44 AM   #7
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Hey Zoomer, good to hear from you again. Seems like it’s been awhile.
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Old 01-26-2020, 07:27 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Zoomer View Post
Oak cabinets, Bin shellac primer, sprayed and backbrushed into grain.
Two topcoats Ben Moore DTM Super Spec semi-gloss alkyd.
Looks good Zoomer. Are you spraying everything on site? I'd be more concerned about spraying a heavy oil like that in a residential setting. Why DTM Oil if you don't mind me asking out of all the products available. I magine it is a pretty tough coating all the same.. Not a big fan of the latex dtm. Sprays funny and mars very easily..
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Old 01-26-2020, 01:00 PM   #9
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Hey guys. Hope everyone is painting and we'll.
Why DTM oil? Well BM regular alkyd semi gloss, 271 is very durable but the pigments are not milled as fine as the DTM.
Therefore the DTM, though thinner in viscosity is a better harder finish.
As far as spraying oil. We spray in the customers garage if possible and dry the doors in the house..
Sometimes we spray the doors in the house.
It just requires setting up plastic bubbles and zipper doors. Box fan venting of course.
Even in occupied houses we never receive complaints.
Years later we receive many thanks for a beautiful, very durable long lasting product.
There are many good products out there but I ask myself, how come all of the kitchen cabinets my father and grandfather did in the 60s 70s 80s and 90s last so long with very few complaints.
Oil.
Oil enamel is the answer.
Yes it will yellow in White.
But when was the last time after a ten year period of exceptional performance has a customer asked you to return to touch up their cabinets.
If the customer gets 8-12 years of solid performance from your paint job and at your modest price point compared to replacing cabinets. Then yes the oil enamel went above and beyond the life expectancy of most paints. Therefore you gave your customer REAL value and hence customer retention.
This includes the new generation of water borne lacquer finishes.
Yes they look nice but break down much faster than oil.
Of course if you can get a spray booth to paint, clear coat and bake then that is even better, but at what cost and will it really extend the life of the finish beyond the 8-12 years moderate price(estimate)point.
I like oil. Not every painter does. Old school but with some new school techniques and methods 👍
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Old 01-26-2020, 05:34 PM   #10
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@Zoomer. Your definitely right though about the old oil paints. Man they are tough! Only cockroaches and all the oil painted trim will outlast the next nuclear war..
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Old 01-26-2020, 06:48 PM   #11
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@Zoomer. Your definitely right though about the old oil paints. Man they are tough! Only cockroaches and all the oil painted trim will outlast the next nuclear war..
👌😎
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Old 01-26-2020, 09:03 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoomer View Post
Hey guys. Hope everyone is painting and we'll.
Why DTM oil? Well BM regular alkyd semi gloss, 271 is very durable but the pigments are not milled as fine as the DTM.
Therefore the DTM, though thinner in viscosity is a better harder finish.
As far as spraying oil. We spray in the customers garage if possible and dry the doors in the house..
Sometimes we spray the doors in the house.
It just requires setting up plastic bubbles and zipper doors. Box fan venting of course.
Even in occupied houses we never receive complaints.
Years later we receive many thanks for a beautiful, very durable long lasting product.
There are many good products out there but I ask myself, how come all of the kitchen cabinets my father and grandfather did in the 60s 70s 80s and 90s last so long with very few complaints.
Oil.
Oil enamel is the answer.
Yes it will yellow in White.
But when was the last time after a ten year period of exceptional performance has a customer asked you to return to touch up their cabinets.
If the customer gets 8-12 years of solid performance from your paint job and at your modest price point compared to replacing cabinets. Then yes the oil enamel went above and beyond the life expectancy of most paints. Therefore you gave your customer REAL value and hence customer retention.
This includes the new generation of water borne lacquer finishes.
Yes they look nice but break down much faster than oil.
Of course if you can get a spray booth to paint, clear coat and bake then that is even better, but at what cost and will it really extend the life of the finish beyond the 8-12 years moderate price(estimate)point.
I like oil. Not every painter does. Old school but with some new school techniques and methods 👍

Have you tried any of the coronado rust scat? That product is a urethane alkyd opposed to p24 alkyd.
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Old 01-26-2020, 09:50 PM   #13
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Yes we had an opportunity to use the rust scat by Coronado. Too gritty. Not as much solids as the DTM . Need to add to much Penetrol to make Rustscat flow. Not nearly as good of a finish as DTM.
Would consider the regular 271 Super Spec oil over Rustscat.
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Old 01-26-2020, 10:07 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoomer View Post
Yes we had an opportunity to use the rust scat by Coronado. Too gritty. Not as much solids as the DTM . Need to add to much Penetrol to make Rustscat flow. Not nearly as good of a finish as DTM.
Would consider the regular 271 Super Spec oil over Rustscat.

also new paint under corotech label you may be interested in trying around april/may. Will tint on Gennex as well.
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Old 01-27-2020, 08:56 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cocomonkeynuts View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoomer View Post
Yes we had an opportunity to use the rust scat by Coronado. Too gritty. Not as much solids as the DTM . Need to add to much Penetrol to make Rustscat flow. Not nearly as good of a finish as DTM.
Would consider the regular 271 Super Spec oil over Rustscat.

also new paint under corotech label you may be interested in trying around april/may. Will tint on Gennex as well.
Thank you for the heads up.
Will look for it and test it👍
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Old 01-29-2020, 12:05 AM   #16
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Looks like I finally found the easy way to attach pictures. It seems like I don't add pictures enough to remember how to do it.

Thanks for all the info guys. Nice work Zoomer.

I've been reading so much good stuff about shellac for cabinets, but I'm still a bit nervous about using it in a customer's home. Mostly because of the flammability. Do any of you guys shut pilot lights off Etc?

I wouldn't mind getting into shellac. I've been having problems with both breakthrough 250 and cabinet coat pinholing, and I think there's some sort of contamination going on with the smart Prime. After some helpful info from some of the folks on here and some other research I had thought it was a temperature thing, but with some further testing that doesn't seem to be the case. Going to do some testing hopefully in the next week or so with some other products. Did a job a few months back with scuff X and no problems,. I'm wondering if it's the urethanenized aspect of cabinet coat and breakthrough that doesn't play well with smart Prime.
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Old 01-29-2020, 12:54 AM   #17
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I have sprayed tons of Cabinet coat through my AAA rig. It is an exceptional product, way easier to spray than Advance, dries to touch quick, can be wet sanded in 2 hours but.....
Still looking for a perfect water based undercoater. Most of the water based primers do not sand well and I mean well like shellac based or ones with talkum in it like Lenmar duralaq undercoater(the easiest to sand of them all) there are also Sherwood 2400 , Sherwood 5421W Gen II from Sherwin Williams.All those undercoaters designed to be applied to a bare wood. Sprayed tons of oil Impervo and Proclassic in the past. Dont have a good sense of smell anymore. Oil dries too long, needs PERFECT work environment to avoid ANY dust particles. Disposal of solvents after cleaning etc. ... Sometimes I spray Emerald trim paint from Sherwin. All those urethane formulation paints are self priming because of the urethane part... Oil is the thing of the past... perhaps glorious painting past but nonetheless.... What is the best solution.
UV cured materials. Some of them up to 80%(!!!!) solids, no VOC, instant cure and sanding right after cure. I know some companies like Nhance etc. giving the technologies that has been around for last 10 years or so a bad name.... But as usually is the case failures are direct results of short cuts ( skiping sanding for one) by applicators. OK what do I use now. Venerable cheap original KILZ oil or BIN Shellac...
Those products never failed me, have great permeability rating and sand easily.
I use Graco TruCoat or cheap Gravity cup gun. Easy to clean or discard the liner.
I'd spray a thin coat for bonding then 3 thin coats of top coat with sanding before last one. I love the look of Cabinet coat. With due diligence one can achieve mirror like results. And once you've done it, there are no turning back! Hope it will help
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Old 01-29-2020, 01:04 AM   #18
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You can also spray Cabinet coat without undercoater but make sure it adheres well.
Sand it with 120/150 depending on how thick your old coat is, but not finer than 180.
Clean well before sanding first with solvent degreaser , then with water based degreaser.
otherwise, you can drive the grease into a substrate by sanding.
Cabinet Coat will pinhole if thinned too much or microbubble if used with incompatible undercoater. I think that waterbased systems let in too much moisture and then when surface tension goes up after drying the problems arise. Thats my theory, perhaps, its wrong... Someone knows for sure....
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Old 01-29-2020, 01:44 AM   #19
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I sand to 600/800 before the last coat. No adhesion problems. Play with viscosity and reduction contingent on surrounding temp and humidity. Temp should be no less than 68/70 , otherwise will sag. Can use infrared cure lamp if conditions are adverse.
I rarely use anything straight outta can. but if someone asked me what is the most difficult part of finishing is, the answer would be .... understanding paint viscosity in various settings. There are some more forgiving waterbased products Like Breakthrough from PPG, but I think their pigments are too rough comparing to BM brands, because BM is one of the few compaines who actually mills their own pigments. Zoomer is right on the spot about that
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Old 01-29-2020, 06:33 AM   #20
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That SmartPrime sounds like a miracle primer. Never used it. Too bad if it's the cause of all your issues..
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