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Old 07-30-2019, 09:06 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Lightningboy65 View Post
There are good cabinet paints out there. I think the problem begins when customers (and even some painters) expect non-factory finishes to equal the durability of a quality baked on factory finish. And that just doesn't happen.
Does baking improve the cross linking and performance characteristics of a 2K finish or does it just speed up the air drying? Iím actually just curious, not knowing the answer myself.

Been putting out 2K finishes for about 13 years now and Iíd almost bet that air dried 2Kís are no less durable than if baked, although I could be wrong.

A few out by me are running automated lines with UV cured finishes, no doubt better.

Another expectation is that an off-the-gun finish will look as good as a finish coming out of a quality millwork shop. Although some off-the-gun finishes look pretty good at best, IMO, an off-the-gun finish isnít quite done. Many painters and shop finishers including myself often skip the the post-spray hand work due to budget or time constraints, the post-spray hand work bringing the finishes up to entirely different level...more of a furniture or even musical instrument grade quality. Iíve never been totally satisfied with any of my off-the-gun finishes, especially since switching to WB for the most part...
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Old 07-31-2019, 06:28 AM   #142
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Eric Reason did a durability test with Advance if your interested.
Ya I just watched that. Disheartening. However, he used a black that had only cured for 30 days. Black and deep bases are bad in all paints. He also used laquer thinner and Toluene as a chemical resistance test?! No s#$t thats gonna rub the paint off. Lol
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Old 07-31-2019, 10:41 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Alchemy Redux View Post
Does baking improve the cross linking and performance characteristics of a 2K finish or does it just speed up the air drying? I’m actually just curious, not knowing the answer myself.

Been putting out 2K finishes for about 13 years now and I’d almost bet that air dried 2K’s are no less durable than if baked, although I could be wrong.

A few out by me are running automated lines with UV cured finishes, no doubt better.

Another expectation is that an off-the-gun finish will look as good as a finish coming out of a quality millwork shop. Although some off-the-gun finishes look pretty good at best, IMO, an off-the-gun finish isn’t quite done. Many painters and shop finishers including myself often skip the the post-spray hand work due to budget or time constraints, the post-spray hand work bringing the finishes up to entirely different level...more of a furniture or even musical instrument grade quality. I’ve never been totally satisfied with any of my off-the-gun finishes, especially since switching to WB for the most part...
I'm not sure of the chemistry myself. And while I've finished my fair share of cabinets, I certainly wouldn't consider myself a cabinet specialist. One thing I do know that baking would assure maximum curing between coats, something that creates a tougher finish. And many of the finishes used in factory finished cabinets contain components that require heat to activate. From what I gather, the equipment used for these finishes run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars, something the average small cabinet shop just can't afford.

I've seen some beautiful, durable factory finishes from the better cabinet makers such as Mouser and others. I imagine these are more than an off gun finish. Probably some hand rubbing involved, I'm sure. And I have seen cabinets come out of local shops that look beautiful, and have done some myself that looked pretty darn good. I just don't think they hold up as well as a factory baked on finish. They hold up well, but not as well as a quality factory finish.
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Old 07-31-2019, 11:37 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Lightningboy65 View Post
I'm not sure of the chemistry myself. And while I've finished my fair share of cabinets, I certainly wouldn't consider myself a cabinet specialist. One thing I do know that baking would assure maximum curing between coats, something that creates a tougher finish. And many of the finishes used in factory finished cabinets contain components that require heat to activate. From what I gather, the equipment used for these finishes run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars, something the average small cabinet shop just can't afford.

I've seen some beautiful, durable factory finishes from the better cabinet makers such as Mouser and others. I imagine these are more than an off gun finish. Probably some hand rubbing involved, I'm sure. And I have seen cabinets come out of local shops that look beautiful, and have done some myself that looked pretty darn good. I just don't think they hold up as well as a factory baked on finish. They hold up well, but not as well as a quality factory finish.
Funny you should mention Mouser. Mouserís are what I have in my kitchen. They were purchased in 1999. By 2007 the clear finishes were shot, especially around the pulls where the clear coats turned to gummy mush from finger print oils. I could literally rub the clear coats off down to bare wood with the palm of my hand around the pulls. I was pretty conscientious about cleaning the oils off too. The finishes also chipped pretty badly. I ended up refinishing them in 2008, prepping and priming with 024 and doing 3 coats of C235 Alkyd Satin Impervo Copley Gray, back painting the glass as well. 11 years later the finishes still look flawless with the same type of wear and tear, as well as care..nothing different. Go figure that Satin Impervo held up better than the factory finishes...and yes, the factory clear finishes appeared to be buffed up and polished after the gun with -zero-texture.

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Old 07-31-2019, 12:01 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Alchemy Redux View Post
Funny you should mention Mouser. Mouserís are what I have in my kitchen. They were purchased in 1999. By 2007 the clear finishes were shot, especially around the pulls where the clear coats turned to gummy mush from finger print oils. I could literally rub the clear coats off down to bare wood with the palm of my hand around the pulls. I was pretty conscientious about cleaning the oils off too. The finishes also chipped pretty badly. I ended up refinishing them in 2008, prepping and priming with 024 and doing 3 coats of C235 Alkyd Satin Impervo Copley Gray, back painting the glass as well. 11 years later the finishes still look flawless with the same type of wear and tear, as well as care..nothing different. Go figure that Satin Impervo held up better than the factory finishes...and yes, the factory clear finishes appeared to be buffed up and polished after the gun with -zero-texture.
I'm surprised to hear that. I have Mouser vanities, and they've held up great. And I have worked in many homes with their cabinets and have never heard any complaints on their finish. But vanities don't get the abuse a kitchen cabinet endures. I'm not surprised to hear SI worked well. Just imagine if it were the SI of years gone by. Boy I sure do miss the old SI. That was my go to for many years, and never let me down.

As anything, the person applying the finish has a lot to do with the quality. I have no doubt a finish applied by yourself would be among the best.
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Old 07-31-2019, 04:27 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Lightningboy65 View Post
I'm surprised to hear that. I have Mouser vanities, and they've held up great. And I have worked in many homes with their cabinets and have never heard any complaints on their finish. But vanities don't get the abuse a kitchen cabinet endures. I'm not surprised to hear SI worked well. Just imagine if it were the SI of years gone by. Boy I sure do miss the old SI. That was my go to for many years, and never let me down.

As anything, the person applying the finish has a lot to do with the quality. I have no doubt a finish applied by yourself would be among the best.
I was equally as surprised. Their warranty specifically excluded finish failure on touch area surfaces. I guess the finish wasnít all that resistant to my greazy finger tips..Iím also certain that the finish technology has vastly improved over the past 20 years since the cabinets were first placed into service.

And yes, I do miss the days of the old Satin Impervo. Alkyd SI, although not the same as yesteryearís, was and still is my go-to finish for interior trim, and used on hand painted cabinetry whenever a brushed finish is specified, sometimes using Hollandlac as well.

I have yet to use a water based paint for interior trim as long as oil is still available.
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Old 11-26-2019, 04:20 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Alchemy Redux View Post
I was equally as surprised. Their warranty specifically excluded finish failure on touch area surfaces. I guess the finish wasnít all that resistant to my greazy finger tips..Iím also certain that the finish technology has vastly improved over the past 20 years since the cabinets were first placed into service.



And yes, I do miss the days of the old Satin Impervo. Alkyd SI, although not the same as yesteryearís, was and still is my go-to finish for interior trim, and used on hand painted cabinetry whenever a brushed finish is specified, sometimes using Hollandlac as well.



I have yet to use a water based paint for interior trim as long as oil is still available.

Yep Iím re-activating an old thread cuz I got a question (surprise surprise right? )....

If u had to repaint ur cabinets today, what would you choose for product?
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Old 11-27-2019, 07:53 AM   #148
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I still use Advance. Fantastic product. Theoretically it is an oil paint. But it cleans up with water. Available in any colour. Can be sprayed or brushed.

QUOTE=PPD;1671029]
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Originally Posted by Alchemy Redux View Post
I was equally as surprised. Their warranty specifically excluded finish failure on touch area surfaces. I guess the finish wasn’t all that resistant to my greazy finger tips..I’m also certain that the finish technology has vastly improved over the past 20 years since the cabinets were first placed into service.



And yes, I do miss the days of the old Satin Impervo. Alkyd SI, although not the same as yesteryear’s, was and still is my go-to finish for interior trim, and used on hand painted cabinetry whenever a brushed finish is specified, sometimes using Hollandlac as well.



I have yet to use a water based paint for interior trim as long as oil is still available.

Yep I’m re-activating an old thread cuz I got a question (surprise surprise right? )....

If u had to repaint ur cabinets today, what would you choose for product?[/QUOTE]
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Old 11-27-2019, 08:17 AM   #149
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Yep Iím re-activating an old thread cuz I got a question (surprise surprise right? )....

If u had to repaint ur cabinets today, what would you choose for product?
For non-atomized paint grade finishes on cabinets and trim I prefer alkyd c235 Satin Impervo. Also used it a lot for level 5 drywall finishes. I have a lot of painted millwork in my home & everything finished with SI in 2008 looks like it was done yesterday and will probably outlive me. If I had to refinish everything today Iíd stick with the SI.

The last couple of homes I did, other painters were hired for the paint grade finishes, all using Advance. IMO, the Advance in comparison to solvent borne alkyds is lacking in depth & reflectivity, not quite measuring up.
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Old 12-08-2019, 10:32 PM   #150
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Initially Scuff X may apply and look good.
Not a single one of us can say what it will look like in a couple of years.
The product is so new that it hasn't been put to the test to determine long term success on cabinetry.
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Old 12-09-2019, 09:06 AM   #151
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Initially Scuff X may apply and look good.
Not a single one of us can say what it will look like in a couple of years.
The product is so new that it hasn't been put to the test to determine long term success on cabinetry.
I painted a coffee table and tv station with scuff X stock black, primed with stix. This was a few months ago. stuff still sticks to it, and have a couple scratches on the coffee table down to primer. There is one spot on the coffee table that went down to original substrate, from putting hot coffee mugs on it. The heat softened the paint and primer up.
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Old 12-09-2019, 11:04 PM   #152
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I painted a coffee table and tv station with scuff X stock black, primed with stix. This was a few months ago. stuff still sticks to it, and have a couple scratches on the coffee table down to primer. There is one spot on the coffee table that went down to original substrate, from putting hot coffee mugs on it. The heat softened the paint and primer up.





Thats disappointing to hear. I just did two jobs where I used it on trim and doors and have to say I was impressed with it and how if feels after it dried. It was a white color so it probably wont have the problems of not curing but I was hopeful I finally found a waterbased product instead of oil. I still love satin impervo and proclassic oil but odor and production are a problem with them.
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Old 12-10-2019, 12:18 AM   #153
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Thats disappointing to hear. I just did two jobs where I used it on trim and doors and have to say I was impressed with it and how if feels after it dried. It was a white color so it probably wont have the problems of not curing but I was hopeful I finally found a waterbased product instead of oil. I still love satin impervo and proclassic oil but odor and production are a problem with them.

cabinetcoat + 1wb.200 undercoat
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Old 12-10-2019, 07:16 AM   #154
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cabinetcoat + 1wb.200 undercoat
Whats this 200 undercoat you speak of.? Does it actually have a name?
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Old 12-10-2019, 09:05 AM   #155
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Whats this 200 undercoat you speak of.? Does it actually have a name?
It's Lennar, never used it but it looks like it's mainly for new stock.

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Old 12-10-2019, 09:33 AM   #156
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Whats this 200 undercoat you speak of.? Does it actually have a name?

http://www.lenmar-coatings.com/produ...ic-undercoater
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Old 12-10-2019, 09:36 AM   #157
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It's Lennar, never used it but it looks like it's mainly for new stock.

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new stock, mdf,pre-primed steel,fiberglass doors trim etc. Not an bonding primer. Spray only.


Works really great on preprimed mdf. cheap too ~$20/gal
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Old Today, 08:07 PM   #158
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Does baking improve the cross linking and performance characteristics of a 2K finish or does it just speed up the air drying? Iím actually just curious, not knowing the answer myself.

Been putting out 2K finishes for about 13 years now and Iíd almost bet that air dried 2Kís are no less durable than if baked, although I could be wrong.

A few out by me are running automated lines with UV cured finishes, no doubt better.

Another expectation is that an off-the-gun finish will look as good as a finish coming out of a quality millwork shop. Although some off-the-gun finishes look pretty good at best, IMO, an off-the-gun finish isnít quite done. Many painters and shop finishers including myself often skip the the post-spray hand work due to budget or time constraints, the post-spray hand work bringing the finishes up to entirely different level...more of a furniture or even musical instrument grade quality. Iíve never been totally satisfied with any of my off-the-gun finishes, especially since switching to WB for the most part...

I posted a article a while back regarding different 2K urethane catalysts. If I recall some catalyst were more sensitive to temperature when curing.
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