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done right the 1st time
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Discussion Starter #1
pulling my hair(if i had any) out on this one.repainted cedar shake house 4yrs ago at yr 3 the original primer that has held on for 30 yrs is what is separating from the shakes. i have just started prepping house for repaint but need to ease my mind on how this phenomenon happened.
and the worse thing yet its for a relative (yes i know never work for them or lend them money) but after all she is my mother.
from prep to failure :
pressured washed w/tsp and bleach scraped any remaining lose paint . waited 3 weeks for dry time primed w tinted primer and 1 coated top finish
used Pratt and lamberts best alkyd oil base and followed instruction to the letter.anywhere on the house that started with exposed wood primer and paint is holding firmly (will not pressure wash off).
everywhere on house that had solid sound paint that with stood pressure washing and scraping 4 years ago primer and paint is still holding fast .
what is happening is the primer that has held fast for 30 years is lifting from the cedar shakes and all cedar and non cedar trim.
original primer paint was sears best (not sure who was there supplier was back then ) it lasted 25 years.
i have read in other post about if you applied a very flexible primer and then used a more ridged top coat that they would separate from each other
could i have suffered the reverse of that, in other words
the old primer and paint had lost all flexibility could i have gotten such great adhesion with new primer and paint that is quite flexible ,that it caused the old primer to come off shakes . shakes on the 1st floor are sawed shakes( smooth surface )and primer has let go over entire shake 12"x12" area. others are standing fast.
second floor are hand split (rough surface) vary in width and 5 in exposed
not as many entire shake with paint lifted.
the north side of house not exposed to much head on weather is relatively
sound . i need to make sure it does not happen again. as i have painted some of her friends houses and they have had no problems.(so you know what i here all the time "how come you do good work for my friends and ****ty work for me")money is no problem she say's (as i am footing the bill) what else could i do its mom.
oh yes location on the coast of WA .where 80 mph winds and rain at an inch an hour is not uncommon for 12-24 hr periods .(nothing like a good winter storm).
i am of the mind set that quality prep and quality primers are the back bone to your to[p coat lasting. in this forum and others i do not see alot of talk on rodda paints , brewed right here in the pacific north west.
seems Sherman Williams gets the best praise . does SW A-100 stand up against there superpaint and duration in cost comparison..

looking for ideas on why the 30 yr old primer lost adhesion

and suggestions as to what products this group would recommend .

i thank you for any ideas
George
 

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done right the 1st time
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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
so should i remove all paint down to bare wood from entire house , as again after pressure washing and scraping any and everything that looked bad there's still 70 80 % of paint remaining in good shape. or is it just a matter of time before it lets lose?
as if that's the case i might as well just re shake the house and leave it cedar . with paint at 60 a gallon it might be a wash on price . just my free labor just went X10.
 

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You didn't mention what primer you used 4 yrs. ago. Not sure why you went with paint instead of solid stain yrs. ago, but there are cases I've heard of where a product like the old Cabot problem solver actually basically grabs so tight that it could pull at the existing finish while bonding well with the bare wood.

Hate it when ##it goes wrong, goodluck
 

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Home Painting Specialists
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I do many repaints on cedar homes here in the Northwest. What I've learned through the years is that wood, smooth & non-porous substrates make it hard for alkyd primers to stay adhered long term. Over time the products delaminate. Especially where moisture & heat exist. Applying new coats of new products causes more trapped heat & moisture as the house breaths making it harder to breath. Something has to give and the surface delaminates.

Stripping would be a very labor intensive job. But necessary. Then I would use Peel Bond on the substrate or United Bonding Primer from United Coatings. Stay away from traditional white latex primers cause they seem to peel from the substrate easy over time because of the the constant air flow through a homes walls. Heat really causes thr paint to delaminate much like a heat gun does.

Acrylic Solid stain by far is the best product to use & imitate the flat paint look. Offering the longest life & ease of maintenance...

Perhaps it's time for mom to have it re-sided & you paint that for free!
 
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This doesn't seem right to me.

Cedar shakes are very porous, correct? Wouldn't the original primer coat have penetrated the wood? I don't see how anything at all could possibly lift 30 year old primer OUT of cedar shakes without taking off a layer of wood.

But I paint apartments so what the hell do I know? :)
 

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This doesn't seem right to me.

Cedar shakes are very porous, correct? Wouldn't the original primer coat have penetrated the wood? I don't see how anything at all could possibly lift 30 year old primer OUT of cedar shakes without taking off a layer of wood.

But I paint apartments so what the hell do I know? :)

I agree:thumbsup:
 

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done right the 1st time
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Discussion Starter #9
had taken many photos , but when i tried to post photos on site . page read that i did not have administrative rights to post photos. and that issue has not been addressed by the powers that be.
where the paint did not peel off in hole sheets , it kind of looked shattered , kind of a modified alligator peel. the original primer that failed put up the best fight i have ever seen . where it peeled from the shakes it has wood fiber stuck every inch of it . where it peeled from the trim boards it lifted a print of the wood grain , as clear as a lithograph print. had the feeling that i would be stripping all the paint. so have already aggressively pressure washed house .had picked up a spray tip about the size and shape of a Hand-grenade , its one of those spinning pulsing heads .well adhered paint does not stand a chance , with a minimum of hair raising on the shakes . no writing or part number on the device . if and when i am allowed to post pictures i'll include a picture of it , as everyone should have one in there arsenal . will try again to post photos .twenty some years ago i believe Olympic used to make a high solid white stain that was a primer coat for oil based top coats as i disposed of a unopened 5 gal can at our hazardous waste facility last summer. i am sure that with out the lead that you could not get a think enough of a film build to use t as a primmer today.

and to all that read this post even if you agree with a reply that you concur / agree with a certain plan of attack . or on reasons for the failure , as i am looking for a conscious ,
and thank you all for your replys
 

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No need to strip what's in good shape. The old coatings are finally failing. Just prep and repaint what's needed. Normally you don't want to wait 3 weeks to paint after pressure washing. After 4 weeks on vertical surfaces you can experience enough uv degradation to affect the top layers of the wood, leading to premature failure. The new coatings you put on 4 years ago were more flexible than the 30 year old coatings , and the constant flex of the new coating and the wood movement from expansion / contraction creates a tug of war which old brittle coatings eventually fail under. I also live in WA. Don't use much Rodda, mostly BM or higher end SW products. Rodda makes good products too I'm sure. Normally whatever a company's better level products will be fine. Peel Bond to recoat, or Ppg Permanizer Plus will create a flexible layer to take some of the stress off the old underlying coatings before repainting.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
well seems as we have a conscious on the peel bond . needing a conscious on the SW A-100 for a top coat or use the duration or super paint??
as the rainy season will soon be on us.

and thank you all for your 2 cent's worth . i am up a buck two ninety eight
 

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I don't think Peel Bond has a conscience, nor SW, but there may be a consensus here. Normally for a quality job you would probably want to go with duration or super paint, however there are instances when it's better to go with a lower quality paint like A-100. This may be one of those. Having a paint with less flex will actually pull on the underlying coatings less, thus reducing surface tension and pulling off the old coatings as the wood moves and expands / contracts.
Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Finn if u noticed some of us don't re-read our post prior to posting .as if peel bond had a conscious. it could decide on its own to stick or not stick.
 

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A Brush Above
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I don't think Peel Bond has a conscience, nor SW, but there may be a consensus here. Normally for a quality job you would probably want to go with duration or super paint, however there are instances when it's better to go with a lower quality paint like A-100. This may be one of those. Having a paint with less flex will actually pull on the underlying coatings less, thus reducing surface tension and pulling off the old coatings as the wood moves and expands / contracts.
Good luck.
I would Agree and go with a less high end paint. A100 for topcoat, or it's comparable. The higher end paints act like shrink wrap. They shrink down as they dry and pull questionable sub layers out of place, creating future delamination.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
so it seems that my assumption that by using a high end paint (Pratt and Lambert ) was the cause of the original primmer to fail after 30 years was correct. and timing is everything our local independent SW retailer is having SW 40-60% off this coming week .so it looks like peel bond and a-100 .
i thank this site and all that piped in with there thoughts. may your cut ins always stay straight and tight . and I'll see what i can do about making sure there's something extra in your stockings this year.
 

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Gibberish45 said:
This doesn't seem right to me.

Cedar shakes are very porous, correct? Wouldn't the original primer coat have penetrated the wood? I don't see how anything at all could possibly lift 30 year old primer OUT of cedar shakes without taking off a layer of wood.

But I paint apartments so what the hell do I know? :)
Cedar shakes have ridges, but it's still smooth. Compare to T1-11 that is rough or the rough side of cedar. Usually cedar has a smooth & rough side to choose from unless they are shakes.

It's best to stain smooth & paint rough cedar...

Know this... A substrate can have texture & still be smooth & relatively non-porus... (for example hardi-plank)
 

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Discussion Starter #18
yes they are shakes ,the second story are hand split a rough highly ridged shake .
the 1st floor are sawed they still have groves and ridges just very uniformed each shake 2ft long 12 inches wide with a 12 inch reveal , then there double stacked second layer allowed to hang 1/2 inch past 1st layer . wish this site would of let me post the pictures have contacted them twice no answer back ... leaning towards the peelbond and a-100 unless a better solution/application is suggested
 

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AtcherService said:
yes they are shakes ,the second story are hand split a rough highly ridged shake .
the 1st floor are sawed they still have groves and ridges just very uniformed each shake 2ft long 12 inches wide with a 12 inch reveal , then there double stacked second layer allowed to hang 1/2 inch past 1st layer . wish this site would of let me post the pictures have contacted them twice no answer back ... leaning towards the peelbond and a-100 unless a better solution/application is suggested
you got it. Just back brush the primer & possibly 1st coat of paint with 4"brush in downstroke only across the face. Then spray only 2nd.
 

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yes they are shakes ,the second story are hand split a rough highly ridged shake .
the 1st floor are sawed they still have groves and ridges just very uniformed each shake 2ft long 12 inches wide with a 12 inch reveal , then there double stacked second layer allowed to hang 1/2 inch past 1st layer . wish this site would of let me post the pictures have contacted them twice no answer back ... leaning towards the peelbond and a-100 unless a better solution/application is suggested
So the material on the first floor is what are called "sidewall shakes": a shingle (sawn not split) that has been machined grooved. We have a lot of houses with them in the Inland Northwest. They are virtually impossible to strip because of the texture. Once those old, thick layers of paint start to fail, the only solution that we have found is chemical stripping.
 
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