[PainterLady]

I recently started up a painting business doing mostly new home construction. I have been painting for years and am a perfectionist, I want things to be perfect when I am done as I am trying to build up a good reputation in my relatively small town.

I've been having trouble with drywallers lately. They haven't been doing a very good job mudding and sanding and it shows. I have been fixing a lot of the problems myself (which I don't think is my job) or the drywallers have been trying to fix the problems (usually crappily), and it's starting to become a major concern. I don't mind fixing the odd ding but when butt joints need to be completely redone I don't think that should be my problem. This guy claims he didn't know it was painted and thought it was primer

My GC seems to think that more coats of paint are going to hide the problems and that "a good tradesman fixes the previous trades problems" I've painted some walls 7 times and you could still see the problem.

I'm using Pittsburg paint which I think is great paint. I've used a lot of other kinds BM, SW, Cloverdale etc... and I really think this is the best paint I have ever used.

So what do you guys do? Is this normal? I just finished a basement with one coat of primer and two top coats and it looked pretty good but not perfect. Drywaller comes back (not called back just did) and decided to "fix" a few areas. Now I have to fix his fixes and after that repaint the entire basement. This guy claims he didn't know it was painted and thought it was primer! He then asked me if I was sure it was an eggshell paint! I want to back charge him but doubt I will get paid.

I painted part of another house with a pearl finish and you could tell the areas that had been mudded. The drywallers response was "If I had known you were going to use pearl I would have finished it to level 5 instead of level 4"? I think he's full of it.

Although I am new at owning a business I have been painting for years, I know what I am doing when it comes to painting but not dealing with other trades.

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[vermontpainter]

We get the GC to make the drywall guys come back and fix it. When the GC says it is fixed, we paint. If you are willing to absorb other trades shortcomings, your builders will love you and you will be out of business much sooner.

 

[timhag]

My GC seems to think that more coats of paint are going to hide the problems and that "a good tradesman fixes the previous trades problems" .

This is your problem. Get away from this guy as soon as you can.......RUN FAST.

 

[tsunamicontract]

I want to back charge him but doubt I will get paid.

also a major problem. You have to back charge for this stuff. If you feel like you wont get paid you should not be working for that GC.

 

[ProWallGuy]

Thank you for reminding me why I won't touch new construction.

If you are truly a perfectionist, aim for the residential repaint market instead of new construction.

 

[daArch]

There is a philosophy that you charge enough so that you can take care of previous work w/o it hurting your bottom line. You fix it, you don' say nuthin, and you get re-hired by the GC because you don' make no trouble. If the GC bites your bid, this ain' a bad way to do business. It's not the way i do business, but I know who does (not on this forum).

And then there are the PDCA standards. Something written that everyone can use as guidelines. THE standards of the industry. In your proposal you quote the appropriate standard that you will follow, when your (low yet reasonable) bid is accepted and the condition of the walls are not up to the level that you specify, you have a signed document allowing you to charge up the yooohoo.

that's the route I would suggest.

 

[michfan]

When we used to do some new construction we would include a little time in the bid for repairing and "pointing out" bad sheetrock areas. By "pointing out" I mean we would prime the walls and then go around with a pencil and mark all the areas that we knew were a problem. The sheetrocker would then come back and fix those areas. Our contract also clearly stated that we would do "minor" patching. This meant an hour or so of normal touch up patching. If it was more than that it was a huge backcharge per manhour we spent fixing the sheetrock. The problem is that a lot of ppl have a misconstrued perception that by adding more coats of paint you can hide the bad sheetrock. A good sheetrocker is hard to come by these days. Most of them have no clue what is good work and what is not. Maybe because they have never painted over their own crappy work before!...I know one thing. It is not worth losing money over. We have been down that bridge before. If your GC does not understand your points and complaints and is not willing to either backcharge his sheetrockers for poor quality or find new sheetrockers, then your best bet is to look elsewhere. You will get burnt before you know it!

 

[crow]

this should of been dealt with before doing anything, now that youve went ahead and just fixed it, now its expected as the usual thing, so, now youll be the bad guy for complainin bout it after wards. if its new const. Id be very clear that I paint. not fix your half wit hung over mudders mistakes, but if I do take on fixin the other guys crap, I charge seperate, and man do I charge!

 

[tsunamicontract]

I feel that if you walk around with the GC, show him what is going on, explain to him how much it will cost next time you have to deal with stuff like that, next time back charge him, he will get the idea (if he is any good) and will make sure his rockers are getting it right so it stops costing him money. Once it starts coming out of his pocket, he will take notice.

 

[ewingpainting.net]

I have had this problem allot as well. One thing I would do is have the gc sign off before you paint. The gc believes if you covered it you, bought it. Showing the gc prior to you painting and adviceing him that you will be backcharge him if this is not taken care of prior to you painting. Your 1st mistake is fixing it for them. I know you are just going the extra mile but belive me they will start to take advantage of that. Let them know you are not a drywaller and you didnt bid the job to paint and then repaint it again due to their drywallers poor craftmanship. Also by bringing your paint rep to advice the gc helps to. For some reason gc like it when you bring more perfesionals on the job.

After all why should any one pay for anybodys bad work.

 

[vermontpainter]

I feel that if you walk around with the GC, show him what is going on, explain to him how much it will cost next time you have to deal with stuff like that, next time back charge him, he will get the idea (if he is any good) and will make sure his rockers are getting it right so it stops costing him money. Once it starts coming out of his pocket, he will take notice.

Even when the drywallers do a "good" job, the bar is still not set too high. If their tape, mud and sanding are adequate, we are still cleaning up after them. That right there is a trade that needs to be held more accountable. The GC just doenst want to have to deal with getting them to come back. It wont cost him anything, just the hassle of making the phone call. We all know that the GC doesnt have to pay the drywall company until he is happy with the product, so lets get them back in for another shot. Usually the GC just prefers that we take care of it because we are there and he doenst want to lose time. And because we want to keep our work moving he thinks we might just throw it in for free.

 

[chrisn]

Thank you for reminding me why I won't touch new construction.

If you are truly a perfectionist, aim for the residential repaint market instead of new construction.


Especially if you need to apply 7 coats. I don't think I have ever put 7 coats of paint on anything.

 

[Capt-sheetrock]

Let me jump in here while you guys are still hot ( call me "asking for it" :whistling2
Yeah we leave the place a mess, kinda just like we got it. My policy is, I leave the floor like I found it, in other words, if I have to clean up after the elec, plumbers, framers, etc, then I Assume, thats the way the GC expects it, and I tell him so, In other words, if he wants me to leave it clean, then I expect to find it clean. Haveing said that, I still scrape and sweep, and clean the mud out of the boxes, and thats part of my NOT cleaning up routine.

About bad finishing work, Yeah theres alot of that going on today. Jobs that used to take three weeks are done in 10 days or less, if we can;t do it on that schedule, the mexicans can. I don't have anything against mexicans, but they have changed the drywall bussiness, in this area more so than price.

Drywallers expect you to prime, and then they come back around and "point up" anything that needs it. Thats how it works, wishing it worked differantly, won't help the problem. When we done sanding there is dust filling up all the scratches and pits, can't see em, when you prime it blows the dust out of the scratches and presto, there them little devils are.If you can "see" a butt joint after its painted, then its not finished right, needs mo mud, thats not your fault and 50 coats of paint won't fix it.

HOWEVER (here comes the wrath) if your going to use eggshell and you DON"T back-roll your primer, your BEGGING for joint problems, this very reason is how and why I got into the painting end of it, in other words, when asked why the joints are showing under eggshell, my standard answer is, he didn't back roll the prime coat, let me paint your next one, and I'll show what I mean. Most painters say "I don't have to back roll the prime coat, I get fine coverage by just spraying" Its not about coverage, back rolling with give the paper and the joint the same texture, and it will "melt" or "drink-up" the dust on the wall, the TWO prime reasons that joints show up under eggshell.

I think that the biggest problem between painters and drywallwers, is just lack of communication, talk to your drywallers, they will either reach an understanding of what you need and let you know what you can and can't expect, or heck, their just jerks.:notworthy:

 

[IHATE_HOMEDEPOT]

Painters fix all eff ups

Sometimes I feel more like a make-up artist than a painter. Sub standard drywall, crappy wood joints, you know how the carpet guys scratch the sh** out of all the good work. If your goal is to always have your work look good, it is a challenge, but it could very well be your best selling point. One thing I do before I bid new work anymore is ask to check the other subs work from previous jobs. Having said that, 1 rule I will employ at times is to not volunteer information, aka zippa the lippa. I have sight like a lemur ,best at night.

 

[vermontpainter]

The issue at hand has to do with prior trades - those whose work our own depends on. So lets back the process up a step. Lets put ourselves in the drywallers shoes for a minute. We come in to hang the drywall and find that the framers have built corners that are quite out of square, more than we can compensate for with mud. Also, the walls are out of plumb and the windows have not been installed properly to flush out with our hung walls. Also, there is missing insulation in many places.

Do we break out our carpentry gear and fix their work so that we can do our jobs?

The drywaller should not have to do other peoples work. The painter should not have to do the drywallers work. The taper should not have to come back in after primer or paint to fix things. The problem with the drywall industry is that there are no generally accepted standards and, at least in my area, they work way too cheap to do a good job. There is a lesson in there for us all.

 

[tsunamicontract]

The issue at hand has to do with prior trades - those whose work our own depends on. So lets back the process up a step. Lets put ourselves in the drywallers shoes for a minute. We come in to hang the drywall and find that the framers have built corners that are quite out of square, more than we can compensate for with mud. Also, the walls are out of plumb and the windows have not been installed properly to flush out with our hung walls. Also, there is missing insulation in many places.

Do we break out our carpentry gear and fix their work so that we can do our jobs?

The drywaller should not have to do other peoples work. The painter should not have to do the drywallers work. The taper should not have to come back in after primer or paint to fix things. The problem with the drywall industry is that there are no generally accepted standards and, at least in my area, they work way too cheap to do a good job. There is a lesson in there for us all.

Another one of your best posts Scott. hard to argue with that logic.

 

[aaron61]

The issue at hand has to do with prior trades - those whose work our own depends on. So lets back the process up a step. Lets put ourselves in the drywallers shoes for a minute. We come in to hang the drywall and find that the framers have built corners that are quite out of square, more than we can compensate for with mud. Also, the walls are out of plumb and the windows have not been installed properly to flush out with our hung walls. Also, there is missing insulation in many places.

Do we break out our carpentry gear and fix their work so that we can do our jobs?

The drywaller should not have to do other peoples work. The painter should not have to do the drywallers work. The taper should not have to come back in after primer or paint to fix things. The problem with the drywall industry is that there are no generally accepted standards and, at least in my area, they work way too cheap to do a good job. There is a lesson in there for us all.

This is where a good G C or Job supervisor comes in handy!!!
I used to do a lot of large commercial work back in Ohio and there was always a supervisor on site. I guess you don't see this in new residential. Thank God I do mostly residential repaints now.

 

[michfan]

Let me jump in here while you guys are still hot ( call me "asking for it" :whistling2

Jobs that used to take three weeks are done in 10 days or less, if we can;t do it on that schedule, the mexicans can. I don't have anything against mexicans, but they have changed the drywall bussiness, in this area more so than price.

I think that the biggest problem between painters and drywallwers, is just lack of communication, talk to your drywallers, they will either reach an understanding of what you need and let you know what you can and can't expect, or heck, their just jerks.:notworthy:

I agree with the fact mexicans have changed the drywall business. I don't think in the last five years I have worked on a new construction job where the sheetrockers were NOT mexicans!...As for the communication, I am not going to go out and learn spanish just so I can talk with the sheetrockers either! :no:

 

[vermontpainter]

Around here they come from Canada...

"Throw me down da stairs my keys..."

 

[PainterLady]

First of all, thanks for all of the replies. What you guys are saying is what I kind of figured, but since I am new to this business I wanted to ask.

also a major problem. You have to back charge for this stuff. If you feel like you wont get paid you should not be working for that GC.

I should have been more clear on this. This job wasn't through my normal GC. I painted the upstairs of the house and the home owner decided to hire a framer, drywaller, and painter to do the basement. I don't want to back charge the home owner because he lives about 4 doors down from me and it really wasn't his fault. I want to back charge the dry waller, if he won't pay I will just eat this one.

Thank you for reminding me why I won't touch new construction.

If you are truly a perfectionist, aim for the residential repaint market instead of new construction.

I actually prefer doing repaints myself, that's how I started my business. The problem is (not really a problem I guess) that this small city is in the middle of the biggest boom it has ever seen. I can make twice as much money doing new construction then I can on repaints. People who want their house repainted simply aren't going to pay for what I can charge on a new house.

HOWEVER (here comes the wrath) if your going to use eggshell and you DON"T back-roll your primer, your BEGGING for joint problems, this very reason is how and why I got into the painting end of it, in other words, when asked why the joints are showing under eggshell, my standard answer is, he didn't back roll the prime coat, let me paint your next one, and I'll show what I mean. Most painters say "I don't have to back roll the prime coat, I get fine coverage by just spraying" Its not about coverage, back rolling with give the paper and the joint the same texture, and it will "melt" or "drink-up" the dust on the wall, the TWO prime reasons that joints show up under eggshell.

quote]

I appreciate your position, I'm not trying to slam dry wallers. We recently built a new house and of course I painted it. I had 0 problems in here. The drywall and paint are perfect. When someone wants to see my work I bring them to my house and I guarantee you I wasn't more "careful" or "slower" because it was my own home, it was just drywalled properly.

Since I am a one person show I don't generally spray walls. On the particular basement in question I did spray as a bit of an experiment. However I did backroll throughly.

Because of the boom in town "tradesman" are showing up out of nowhere. This guy is new in town. He talks a good game but I really don't think he knows what he is doing. Can anyone provide a link or tell me what the different "levels" of drywall finishing are or is this just a bunch of BS?

The GC in question is doing his best but he simply can't find contractors. If you want to build a house in my city right now you are waiting well over a year and a half. I've been in my new house a year now and I still don't have a final coat of stucco or a front step!

After reading what was posted here I am going to have a long chat with the GC. I am in the position of power here not him, I can jump ship tommorrow and have lots of work.

My biggest concern still is that I am in a small town. Coffee row rumour has killed more than one business in this town. I am trying to establish myself as the premier painter in town. The customer doesn't generally know why the finished product looks like s___ and I'm afraid their going to blame me.

Again thanks for the advice.